Blackhawks

Joel Goodson · Apr 14, 2023

Illinoise said:
They have the fifth pick in this years draft (hopefully better). They also have the 20th pick in this years draft. They have 4 second round picks this year. They have two picks in the first round and second round next year. They will have massive amounts of cap space. Of course they would love to luck into that first pick or anywhere in the top three. This team needed to be stripped down and rebuilt. It’s painful to watch but they really had no choice. Conner Bedard isn’t winning the next 10 Stanley Cups. Would love to have him on the Hawks but all is not lost.

no one is saying a rebuild isn't necessary. there are 4 elite players (one of which is generational) and then there's a big dropoff. the Hawks might well might have blown their chance at getting one of these top kids. that's what all the moaning is about. hard to compete for titles without elite players.

ChiefGritty · Apr 14, 2023

Joel Goodson said:
no one is saying a rebuild isn't necessary. there are 4 elite players (one of which is generational) and then there's a big dropoff. the Hawks might well might have blown their chance at getting one of these top kids. that's what all the moaning is about. hard to compete for titles without elite players.

And to be more specific, the entire season was built around tanking as aggressively as possible, with no effort being made to conceal that.

And with total success toward that goal a whisker away, it was choked away in excruciating fashion.

Modern savvy insider fandom asks you to treat the tank as a competitive enterprise. Well, to take that seriously is to be a brutally disappointed Blackhawks fan today.

To be a more traditionally oriented fan is to be an equally bewildered Blackhawks fan today due to the strange and quite sad coda to Jonathan Toews' legendary career.

It kinda doesn't matter what angle you come at it from (we needn't touch on the problems people of a progressive political bent have with the team leadership), this is a franchise that has gone from the toast of the town to aggressively alienating very quickly.

You can't be dynastically good forever. Things end. But now that we're here, it's a question of what the value proposition is for the fans.

Illinoise · Apr 14, 2023

ChiefGritty said:
And to be more specific, the entire season was built around tanking as aggressively as possible, with no effort being made to conceal that.

And with total success toward that goal a whisker away, it was choked away in excruciating fashion.

Modern savvy insider fandom asks you to treat the tank as a competitive enterprise. Well, to take that seriously is to be a brutally disappointed Blackhawks fan today.

To be a more traditionally oriented fan is to be an equally bewildered Blackhawks fan today due to the strange and quite sad coda to Jonathan Toews' legendary career.

It kinda doesn't matter what angle you come at it from (we needn't touch on the problems people of a progressive political bent have with the team leadership), this is a franchise that has gone from the toast of the town to aggressively alienating very quickly.

You can't be dynastically good forever. Things end. But now that we're here, it's a question of what the value proposition is for the fans.

I guess I look at the “tanking” as a by-product of doing what had to be done and not the sole objective. Of course Davidson wasn’t happy to see that puck go in but what can you do. It’s not like a handful of other teams didn’t have zero expectations of being competitive this year. Wishing they had the best odds for first pick and a guaranteed top three pick I understand. Attempting to paint the organization as inept for not finishing last I don’t get. Not your words I know, but seems to be a common refrain.

ChiefGritty · Apr 14, 2023

Illinoise said:
Attempting to paint the organization as inept for not finishing last I don’t get.

Yeah, no, I get it. You can avoid being good on purpose but you can't lose on purpose. There's a line. Davidson didn't do anything wrong this week.

But it's a bummer! The Hawks had a goal and they weren't able to reach it, and really self-sabotaged it at the last second.

You're right that it doesn't really bend the longer term trajectory, and the problem with the longer term trajectory is that it's still not super clear that open-ended tanking is a successful team building strategy in the NHL in the way it has (sadly and problematically!) proven to be in MLB.

Illinicpa14 · Apr 14, 2023

ChiefGritty said:
Yeah, no, I get it. You can avoid being good on purpose but you can't lose on purpose. There's a line. Davidson didn't do anything wrong this week.

But it's a bummer! The Hawks had a goal and they weren't able to reach it, and really self-sabotaged it at the last second.

You're right that it doesn't really bend the longer term trajectory, and the problem with the longer term trajectory is that it's still not super clear that open-ended tanking is a successful team building strategy in the NHL in the way it has (sadly and problematically!) proven to be in MLB.

That’s where I’m at. I have no doubt they can get some top draft picks that hopefully turn into good players.

But even look at the last dynasty. Yes, all the rebuild places came into place but was headlined by hitting on a generational pick (Kane) and another very top end pick (Toews) coupled with doing the right things in the other early rounds. Finding a Keith then put the team over the top. Right now, I see the path as we need to find 3-4 Duncan Keith’s out of the later picks, which is just hard to do.

Illinoise · Apr 14, 2023

ChiefGritty said:
Yeah, no, I get it. You can avoid being good on purpose but you can't lose on purpose. There's a line. Davidson didn't do anything wrong this week.

But it's a bummer! The Hawks had a goal and they weren't able to reach it, and really self-sabotaged it at the last second.

You're right that it doesn't really bend the longer term trajectory, and the problem with the longer term trajectory is that it's still not super clear that open-ended tanking is a successful team building strategy in the NHL in the way it has (sadly and problematically!) proven to be in MLB.

I don’t think there is any foolproof blueprint for building a winner. With the salary cap involved, I do think it has to include young players who are giving you way more current production than they are costing in compensation. Hawks had none of that and a barren prospect pool.

Let’s face it, there is a lot of luck involved in putting together a championship caliber team. You can luck into a first overall pick and take Jamarcus Russell or you can end up with Tom Brady in the sixth round. Hopefully the talent evaluation is good and the money coming available is spent wisely.

ChiefGritty · Apr 14, 2023

Illinoise said:
Let’s face it, there is a lot of luck involved in putting together a championship caliber team.

Even more so in the NHL than in other sports leagues, I'd argue.

Which to me points in favor of avoiding doing the only thing that prevents luck from finding you - being bad on purpose.

The Hawks were in a singularly difficult situation that unfortunately they'd made much worse than it had to be with the Seth Jones trade, that was a real organizational failure. Untangling the roster Davidson inherited was always going to be painful.

But as a general matter in the NHL, it strikes me that just trying to be good is probably an underrated championship-targeting strategy. Now that the decks are cleared and the band aid is ripped off, that would be my advice for Kyle Davidson. I don't think he'll follow it.

SnakePlissken · Apr 14, 2023

ChiefGritty said:
Even more so in the NHL than in other sports leagues, I'd argue.

Which to me points in favor of avoiding doing the only thing that prevents luck from finding you - being bad on purpose.

The Hawks were in a singularly difficult situation that unfortunately they'd made much worse than it had to be with the Seth Jones trade, that was a real organizational failure. Untangling the roster Davidson inherited was always going to be painful.

But as a general matter in the NHL, it strikes me that just trying to be good is probably an underrated championship-targeting strategy. Now that the decks are cleared and the band aid is ripped off, that would be my advice for Kyle Davidson. I don't think he'll follow it.

I didn't like the trade for Seth Jones, but I would argue keeping Colliton too long was the bigger problem. Regardless, I agree it didn't have to be like this.

I expect Davidson's plan is to be really bad again next year, then start building from there (hopefully). I know there's a lot of money to spend and it seems we finally have a real NHL head coach again, but I think the depth will be too thin to legitimately compete next year.

FWIW, the 2024 draft's next big thing, Macklin Celebrini, is currently playing for the USHL's Chicago Steel out in Geneva. He's leading the league in scoring by a healthy margin. When the boys were in town a month ago we went to see him play - took him about 3 minutes to score.

Warren Carter Fanclub · Apr 14, 2023

SnakePlissken said:
I didn't like the trade for Seth Jones, but I would argue keeping Colliton too long was the bigger problem. Regardless, I agree it didn't have to be like this.

I expect Davidson's plan is to be really bad again next year, then start building from there (hopefully). I know there's a lot of money to spend and it seems we finally have a real NHL head coach again, but I think the depth will be too thin to legitimately compete next year.

FWIW, the 2024 draft's next big thing, Macklin Celebrini, is currently playing for the USHL's Chicago Steel out in Geneva. He's leading the league in scoring by a healthy margin. When the boys were in town a month ago we went to see him play - took him about 3 minutes to score.

Colliton? How about Bowman? He didn't just leave the cupboard bare, he knocked it off the wall.

SnakePlissken · Apr 14, 2023

Warren Carter Fanclub said:
Colliton? How about Bowman? He didn't just leave the cupboard bare, he knocked it off the wall.

Well, sure. Stan failed to fire Colliton, so Stan should have been fired. I totally agree there.

Roundball Sage · Apr 14, 2023

Second place is 1st loser said:
This has become the worst run franchise in Chicago and that's saying a lot when you have two teams run by Jerry Reinsdorf.

The Blackhawks have for most years out of the last one hundred been the worst run franchise in Chicago. And how could that ever change since the same family line has owned them since dinosaurs walked along Madison Street seeking sumac leaves to eat?

Blackhawk ownership has always disrespected and taken for granted Chicagoland’s love of the game of Hockey. And in the long-time fashion of the baseball team that plays on the North Side... why put money into the team when the stands will be totally filled and you can bank all that extra coin for yourself? The ownership has been generationally famous for that business plan.

And let’s not forget that just a couple things Blackhawk ownership has done was to drive out Bobby Hull and Phil Esposito in their prime and sent them off to bolster the Hawks enemies.

The fact that the Hawks bagged a few cups years ago was a freak of nature like discovering a wallet stuffed with money out on the street somewhere. It will be a long time before the team with one of the best logos in pro sports gets anywhere near that level again. Too bad the team and the ownership does not match the level of greatness of the Blackhawk Crest... and Chicago hockey fans.

'Tanks' for the Memories.

bdutts · Apr 14, 2023

Joel Goodson said:
no one is saying a rebuild isn't necessary. there are 4 elite players (one of which is generational) and then there's a big dropoff. the Hawks might well might have blown their chance at getting one of these top kids. that's what all the moaning is about. hard to compete for titles without elite players.

I think your anger is misplaced. Should be directed at Calgary, Pittsburgh and Boston for losing to the team the Hawks iced. It was horrible.

Many of the guys on the team were playing for jobs next year and beyond. Did you want them to roll over? Not sure what else could have been done.

bdutts · Apr 14, 2023

SnakePlissken said:
I didn't like the trade for Seth Jones, but I would argue keeping Colliton too long was the bigger problem. Regardless, I agree it didn't have to be like this.

I expect Davidson's plan is to be really bad again next year, then start building from there (hopefully). I know there's a lot of money to spend and it seems we finally have a real NHL head coach again, but I think the depth will be too thin to legitimately compete next year.

FWIW, the 2024 draft's next big thing, Macklin Celebrini, is currently playing for the USHL's Chicago Steel out in Geneva. He's leading the league in scoring by a healthy margin. When the boys were in town a month ago we went to see him play - took him about 3 minutes to score.

2023-2024 will look a lot like the season that just ended yesterday.

Joel Goodson · Apr 29, 2023

playoff hockey is the best (even if your team ain't in it). Hawks benefit from the Leafs beating Tampa.

bdutts · Apr 30, 2023

Pick is 20 but could go 19 if Florida beats Boston.

Joel Goodson · Apr 30, 2023

bdutts said:
Pick is 20 but could go 19 if Florida beats Boston.

20/19 is so much better than if TB went on another deep run (hey, I'm a genius!). Reichel/Dylan Mercer like talent there.

bdutts · Apr 30, 2023

Joel Goodson said:
20/19 is so much better than if TB went on another deep run (hey, I'm a genius!). Reichel/Dylan Mercer like talent there.

There is a ton of talent in this draft so they should get a good one at 19 or 20.

bdutts · Apr 30, 2023

Joel Goodson said:
playoff hockey is the best (even if your team ain't in it). Hawks benefit from the Leafs beating Tampa.

Also need NYR to get to the conference finals...

bdutts · Apr 30, 2023

Joel Goodson said:
20/19 is so much better than if TB went on another deep run (hey, I'm a genius!). Reichel/Dylan Mercer like talent there.

Boston out, Hawks with the 19th pick.

suburbanILLINI · Apr 30, 2023

bdutts said:
Boston out, Hawks with the 19th pick.

Best regular season in NHL history and out in the first round. Absolutely beautiful. Maybe if Marchand licked more guys, the Bruins would have won

Joel Goodson · Apr 30, 2023

suburbanILLINI said:
Best regular season in NHL history and out in the first round. Absolutely beautiful. Maybe if Marchand licked more guys, the Bruins would have won

Need the Rags to make it to the ECFs. Turns the 2nd for Kane into their '24 1st (top 10 protected).

SnakePlissken · Apr 30, 2023

bdutts said:
Boston out, Hawks with the 19th pick.

Isn't that only true if the Panthers win the next round? I believe the Panthers only change draft positions if they make the conference final.

IlliniFaninHoosierLand · Apr 30, 2023

suburbanILLINI said:
Best regular season in NHL history and out in the first round. Absolutely beautiful. Maybe if Marchand licked more guys, the Bruins would have won

And now the Avs are out, so it's a good day.

bdutts · May 1, 2023

SnakePlissken said:
Isn't that only true if the Panthers win the next round? I believe the Panthers only change draft positions if they make the conference final.

I think you're right on that...

SnakePlissken · May 1, 2023

bdutts said:
I think you're right on that...

Yeah, not an easy thing to keep track of. It only applies to the conference finalists and only for the first round. I hadn't even thought of it in a positive way until you mentioned it. I just wanted TB out to ensure that pick didn't get downgraded to 29th or worse.

So we're hoping for a Panthers v Rangers ECF to maximize draft capital. Regardless, I'm enjoying the action.