Any chance Weber finds himself coaching again after this offseason somewhere or is he for sure done?
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Self-proclaimed Zenmaster, maybe.
He WAS an amazing manager of egos…I’ll give you that.
AND I get your point; but we’ll never know what might have been had Doug Collins had the roster that Jackson acquired later…That’s not even apples to oranges…to me…it’s peanut butter and bubble gum.
It isn’t coaching but I sure know who I’d put my money on in a pick-up game between Doug Collins and Phil Jackson.
Right? It does mean that Brad puts together really really good staffs. That's a positive!
As always thank you for your common sense approach! The poster you responded to is the perfect example of people who just make stuff up without knowing the facts.
This is pretty spot on. We do quite a bit of traveling, and when people ask where we are from we tell them Illinois and follow that up with Chicago - even though we live near Peoria.
Fun fact - we just went to Punta Cana at the end of January and were talking to a guy that worked at the resort - he was from Mexico, but graduated from the U of I in the early 80's. (I happened to be wearing a U of I hat).
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
A follow up to these thoughts happened to me on a sales manager's conference at the Wisconsin Dells area..........After we had checked in and went to our orientation meeting ,as usual , we all headed for the open bar............After getting that glow we started talking to other managers from different districts and one encounter comes to mind for me that i still get the grins about......Wise words Pru!
One of the managers we knew introduced us to a new manager from his district .....It was a Russian dude who had emigrated to the USA to escape the communistic living thing........he was a cool dude and after talking about the usual stuff of how he was adjusting to the USA , he said he could tell it better by using an example of the difference between the USA and Russia .....
So he starts talking about dating websites , which was in the infantile stage compared to now.......But he said here in the States you sign up and give your wants , preferences and such ........you know , age and measurements and hobbies etc....
he said in Russia it's a normal post trying to find a women like this..........
Man
44
looking for a woman in same age group owning a tractor
Please send picture of tractor............................lol......I sh*t you not .....we all started rolling in our chairs ....We also found a friend as at all the following conferences we would look him up and he had so many more examples of the differences in standards of living...
true story..............
A clearly still drunk Bob Huggins at 8:30 am unloading on referees while only dropping 1-2 actual nuggets about how Press Virginia actually works is still the funniest session I’ve been to.
IlliniSaluki
- IL metro east burbs of St. Louis
This right here. I'm from the Metro East and still live here. The way I like to point it out is try driving through Nebraska on I80 from Lincoln going west. You will hit a spot where you will be told by signs that "last stop with services" "No services for 90 miles".. where in the hell in Illinois on any interstate do you have a 90 mile gap between gas stations on an interstate? No where. (tip: Don't drive from Nebraska City to Lincoln at night. Non interstate and very very Children of the Corn vibes lol)
I don't know the answer to this so I'll let you tell us. When Doug Collins was there , how many years was Scottie Pippen there? I'not being confrontational, but Colin Cowherd said this week that Michael Jordan only won one playoff series without Scottie.
* I was not trying to sound confrontational either…in Roundball Sage’s post. Apologies if it came off that way.
I don’t know if it’s me or what.
But, I just find Jackson more than a little bit sanctimonious and pompous. He’s got the wins. But had some of the best rosters in NBA history at Chicago and LA both. JMO The bulls could of had Bill Cartwright as a player coach and they would have made the playoffs at minimum. Jackson was able to manage egos…but I mean come on.
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Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
- Bloomington, IL
I've always been under the impression (and can no longer remember why I have that impression) that MJ did not see eye to eye with Collins and felt that the team had hit their ceiling under Dougie. Management listened and a few folks wound up with a fist full of rings and one for the other hand.
Edit--I just proved my memory is really, really bad.
Michael Jordan Wasn't Happy When Bulls Fired Doug Collins and Named Phil Jackson Coach: 'I Wasn't a Phil Jackson Fan When He First Came In'
Michael Jordan won six championships and six Finals MVPs under Phil Jackson. However, they didn't always see eye to eye.
www.sportscasting.com
That’s alright! Lol right there with ya.I've always been under the impression (and can no longer remember why I have that impression) that MJ did not see eye to eye with Collins and felt that the team had hit their ceiling under Dougie. Management listened and a few folks wound up with a fist full of rings and one for the other hand.
Edit--I just proved my memory is really, really bad.
Michael Jordan Wasn't Happy When Bulls Fired Doug Collins and Named Phil Jackson Coach: 'I Wasn't a Phil Jackson Fan When He First Came In'
Michael Jordan won six championships and six Finals MVPs under Phil Jackson. However, they didn't always see eye to eye.
Hmm, the Pruman code is cracked, yadda yadda yadda, Captain and Tenille
I think i'm seeing this different than most outsiders, so i want to offer a another scenario and wait for Indy to shoot me down.
I said in a Pre-Indybomb post
"Brad's sideline demeanor changed dramatically after Skyy left. There were no more back-from-commercial 'Look at Brad give it to them' segments. He yelled some, but he was different. He came out at halftime and sat on the bench. The coach-speak was there, but he usually wants us to believe him, and now he was just reciting the lines. ... I think that, while no coach could ever say it, NO ONE is more excited about this year being behind us than Brad Underwood."
At the time I attributed it to the not having player buy in, but the Indybomb puts it in a different perspective. I think Indy's info makes it plain that there is friction (at the very least) between Underwood and Whitman
Let's talk about the Indybomb first though.
I see Miller as a near fait accompli at this point. Not only did Indy come and spill a lot of beans, he (or she or they) stayed and answered questions and added details for hours! That just doesn't happen! It was awesome. (Thanks Indy!) Was it a psyop? If Indy does carry the imprimatur of the AD, then i think it was a psyop of the best kind. Lets look at what the Indybomb says to some different groups.
1: To Brad Underwood: Don't let the door hit ya.
2: To other ADs interviewing Brad Underwood: Don't overpay, there won't be a bidding war.
3: To Xavier's AD: Get your bag ready. Let's make this quick.
4: To our players: Don't put your name in the portal just yet.
5: To our fans: The jolt you will feel is not the floor dropping out, but the elevator starting to rise.
6: To EVERYONE: Josh Whitman is both the best boss you could hope to have and a stone cold killer.
Now Indy did say that there was still a chance that Underwood could be here next year, but assuming everything he says is true to the best of his knowledge (which i do), we have reached a point where the Athletic Department would like Underwood to leave. I think we can forgive him for looking at other gigs this year because it seems Whitman is encouraging him to. So how did we get here?
Underwood looking at jobs every year? Nah. It isn't endearing, but Josh is out here being the best boss he can be, he doesn't worry about that stuff. Our record / a disappointing tournament finish? Josh isn't sweating that. I think that Underwood's demeanor change marks the timing, and that the reason is... Skyy Clark.
Not Skyy Clark the individual though. Skyy Clark the idea. The highly rated player brought in with a generous NIL investment, with next to Zero ROI. Josh Whitman's basketball coach said 'I want that guy,' spent someone else's money on that guy, got that guy, and chased that guy away in half a season. I am pretty sure that there was mention of unhappy donors at some point (i don't remember if that was from Indy though), and i think the donor who covered Skyy's NIL would have had right to be upset.
We all know Underwood's style isn't for everyone - players and fans alike. That's never been a big deal - kids transfer out, so be it. But with NIL, when you scare off a kid, you risk scaring off a donor as well. If you were a donor who ponied up for Skyy Clark in 2023, how excited are you to be ponying up for his replacement in 2024? Whitman understands this well CANNOT run dry. CAN NOT!
For a coach with Underwood's style, you'd better know exactly who 'your guys' are when you are recruiting, because you can't afford to pay a kid like Skyy and be too aggro for them, but you also need the pool of 'your guys' to include enough high level players to take you to the next level, and to be lucky enough to win the recruiting battle to get 'your guy' to Illinois. This is stacking the deck against him. Most schools can spend their NIL money on the best available player, and end up with a lot more options.
I imagine the Clark situation highlighted this arithmetic for Whitman, Whitman shared those concerns with Brad, and I would wager that conversation went poorly. Very poorly. For the rest of the season Underwood poorly pantomimed positivity while we could see the team chucking their way to oblivion. "I wouldn't want to play us." "This team is built for March."
Underwood is eager to go, Whitman is ready when it happens, and Indy makes sure we all have our popcorn ready when the time comes.
(Note to insiders: if i am way off, feel free to correct me!)
I said in a Pre-Indybomb post
"Brad's sideline demeanor changed dramatically after Skyy left. There were no more back-from-commercial 'Look at Brad give it to them' segments. He yelled some, but he was different. He came out at halftime and sat on the bench. The coach-speak was there, but he usually wants us to believe him, and now he was just reciting the lines. ... I think that, while no coach could ever say it, NO ONE is more excited about this year being behind us than Brad Underwood."
At the time I attributed it to the not having player buy in, but the Indybomb puts it in a different perspective. I think Indy's info makes it plain that there is friction (at the very least) between Underwood and Whitman
Let's talk about the Indybomb first though.
I see Miller as a near fait accompli at this point. Not only did Indy come and spill a lot of beans, he (or she or they) stayed and answered questions and added details for hours! That just doesn't happen! It was awesome. (Thanks Indy!) Was it a psyop? If Indy does carry the imprimatur of the AD, then i think it was a psyop of the best kind. Lets look at what the Indybomb says to some different groups.
1: To Brad Underwood: Don't let the door hit ya.
2: To other ADs interviewing Brad Underwood: Don't overpay, there won't be a bidding war.
3: To Xavier's AD: Get your bag ready. Let's make this quick.
4: To our players: Don't put your name in the portal just yet.
5: To our fans: The jolt you will feel is not the floor dropping out, but the elevator starting to rise.
6: To EVERYONE: Josh Whitman is both the best boss you could hope to have and a stone cold killer.
Now Indy did say that there was still a chance that Underwood could be here next year, but assuming everything he says is true to the best of his knowledge (which i do), we have reached a point where the Athletic Department would like Underwood to leave. I think we can forgive him for looking at other gigs this year because it seems Whitman is encouraging him to. So how did we get here?
Underwood looking at jobs every year? Nah. It isn't endearing, but Josh is out here being the best boss he can be, he doesn't worry about that stuff. Our record / a disappointing tournament finish? Josh isn't sweating that. I think that Underwood's demeanor change marks the timing, and that the reason is... Skyy Clark.
Not Skyy Clark the individual though. Skyy Clark the idea. The highly rated player brought in with a generous NIL investment, with next to Zero ROI. Josh Whitman's basketball coach said 'I want that guy,' spent someone else's money on that guy, got that guy, and chased that guy away in half a season. I am pretty sure that there was mention of unhappy donors at some point (i don't remember if that was from Indy though), and i think the donor who covered Skyy's NIL would have had right to be upset.
We all know Underwood's style isn't for everyone - players and fans alike. That's never been a big deal - kids transfer out, so be it. But with NIL, when you scare off a kid, you risk scaring off a donor as well. If you were a donor who ponied up for Skyy Clark in 2023, how excited are you to be ponying up for his replacement in 2024? Whitman understands this well CANNOT run dry. CAN NOT!
For a coach with Underwood's style, you'd better know exactly who 'your guys' are when you are recruiting, because you can't afford to pay a kid like Skyy and be too aggro for them, but you also need the pool of 'your guys' to include enough high level players to take you to the next level, and to be lucky enough to win the recruiting battle to get 'your guy' to Illinois. This is stacking the deck against him. Most schools can spend their NIL money on the best available player, and end up with a lot more options.
I imagine the Clark situation highlighted this arithmetic for Whitman, Whitman shared those concerns with Brad, and I would wager that conversation went poorly. Very poorly. For the rest of the season Underwood poorly pantomimed positivity while we could see the team chucking their way to oblivion. "I wouldn't want to play us." "This team is built for March."
Underwood is eager to go, Whitman is ready when it happens, and Indy makes sure we all have our popcorn ready when the time comes.
(Note to insiders: if i am way off, feel free to correct me!)
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Name does not check out
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
Ahhhh, nope to captain and Tenille........never gonna do it .......nadanadanada.....code still intact................lol
you don't happen to have a shorter short story do you?
Regarding Skyy: Louisville will be his sixth school in six years. Seems like he “scares” a bit too easily.
uofi7477
- Silver & Gold Vandals
Nailed it, I hope...
I wasn't indicating that I personally believed any of the scenario I set out. I was just recounting what the roundball Einsteins at the time were speculating about why the change was made. I liked Collins and didn't know if the feeling that he had taken the Bulls as far as he could was valid. In fact, nobody knows that for sure one way or the other. And we never will know.
And how the Bulls responded to Jackson (The Heights) and then there rapid decline when he left (The Depths) is just clear matter of their yearly record.
It's clear that Jordan could not have succeeded like that without Scottie, Phil, John Paxson, Steve Kerr, Horace Grant, Rodman, etc. Those other guys clearly do not get as much credit as they deserve for the legendary run the Bulls had. They would have won at least 8 NBA titles in a row if not for Michael's personal situation back then. Though they had some tight spots in the playoffs a time or two.. really nobody could touch them.
I was halfway through writing a post stating nearly the same thing last night. I just couldn’t say it as eloquently as you. I definitely wouldn’t have used the terms fait accompli and imprimatur.
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