Harbaugh sideways with NCAA

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#326      
Ah, Zero Tolerance. It sounds lovely in theory. In practice it presents all kinds of problems.

Let's start by noting a big distinction between doping and scouting: doping is inherently dangerous -- especially to athletes themselves. You are messing with your own hormones. There's increased risk of cancer and damage to reproductive organs. The rule against doping isn't in place to save money, it's in place to keep cyclists from hurting themselves for an edge. Scouting opponents -- even away from your campus -- doesn't cause cancer or shrink anyone's nuts.
I’m not suggesting some sort of program sanction, just vacating victories over team you defeated after in-season in-person scouting. Note also I’m suggesting it be applied to everybody. That seems objective, focused, and consistent.

I chose cycling as an example for two reasons. First, it’s my true passion and second, it’s very relevant here. It appears you’re confusing different types of doping. It’s a broad term for many practices in many sports, some of which are dangerous to the athlete while others are not at all dangerous. They’re simply cheating.

Read Armstrong’s book “It’s Not About the Bike” and you learn he was a mediocre cycling pro before testicular cancer, largely due to his biathlon background. Swimming builds upper body muscles, which are dead weight for a cyclist. Grand tour GC contenders are freaks of nature with very low body mass and incredible ability to process oxygen (VO2 max). The chemo that saved Armstrong‘s life somehow withered away his muscles but left his lungs intact. He returned to cycling without the upper body mass but with the highest VO2 max ever measured at the place that tested him. The rest is history.

I‘m a 68 year old male with very respectable estimated VO2 max, but my 60 year old wife’s is incredible, in the top 1% for her age and comparable to a 20 year old athlete. There are very few 50 year old males who can hang with her on a tough climb. Armstrong was likely unbeatable even w/o doping (like MI w/o scouting) but greed for a bigger edge took over (like MI). Doping in cycling is focused on increasing the amount of oxygen your blood can carry, while anything increasing muscle mass is terrible. One of the most common doping methods was blood transfusions, often using your own blood, banked earlier. This is absolutely harmless to the athlete, but it nearly killed the sport. Fans grew disillusioned (like B1G fans over MI cheating), sponsors started to ditch the sport, and the boom in recreational/amateur cycling faded as the American hero was exposed as a cheat. When news leaked out about Armstrong’s team reclined in their bus receiving transfusions, the UCI did not act to save the athletes (it was utterly harmless to them), but to save the sport.

“Everybody did it“ in that era and many have since been punished. Testing is now incredibly thorough with blood drawn from every stage winner and violations are now rare. Ironically, Armstrong might well have won even w/o doping. We’ll never know whether it affected the outcome (like MI cheating). Maybe he needed to have his team doped to win? Just about everybody agrees vacating his wins was only fair. Now there’s focus on possible hidden batteries and motors, with bikes x-rayed after victories in climbing stages. The UCI learned their lesson on cheating. It’s corrosive and shouldn’t be tolerated in any sport. So yes, I’m for zero tolerance, a level playing field.
 
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#327      

Which stage of grief is this denial or bargaining?

We weren’t the only ones. Stealing signs is not wrong in person scouting to acquire the signs is the issue.
 
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#328      

the national

the Front Range
"However, an Illinois staffer from last season where Ryan Walters was the defensive coordinator, has confirmed to The Wolverine that Walters and Illinois had stolen Michigan’s offensive signals last season.

The staffer said that Bret Bielema and Illinois got signals “legally” but I guess we’ll just have to take their word for it. Chris Balas also reports that Michigan suspects Ohio State of having its signals in 2018 and 2019."

https://gbmwolverine.com/2023/11/06...igan-football-in-2022-ohio-state-accused-too/
[Of course, instead of complaining about Illinois — Michigan football switched to wristbands and won the game.]

LOL!!! What hogwash. The game was decided by a few terrible calls. The refs bailed them out. This article is just so absolutely tone deaf.

Bret has said that they watch the other sideline during games but that’s the key - it’s during games. Deciphering signals is part of the game. Traveling to opposing teams games, multiple weeks in a row, video taping the sidelines to sync up with game action to steal signs is way over the top. What’s more is the lying aspect. It takes burgergate to a whole new level. Harbaugh and staff have just lied through their teeth about this.

Read on another forum tonight that Stallions had created an LLC in Wyoming that had listed Blake Corum as one of the owners along with Stallions and Connor O’Dea. Apparently this LLC was used to buy some of the tickets.
 
#329      

BZuppke

Plainfield
I’m always suspect of those who are fans of winning teams. ‘I’m an Illini grad and a basketball fan, but a Michigan football fan’. So you’re a fair weather fan.

As for me I have two degrees from Illinois and I’m a fan of all things Illini. Ever so true LV.
 
#332      

the national

the Front Range
Jurassic Park Ian Malcom GIF
 
#333      

altgeld88

Arlington, Virginia
As a counterpoint, Dan Wetzel's latest. If true, then if Michigan gets slapped, others must, too for the sake of consistency.

Either everyone's guilty, or no one is

In Michigan’s case, the “advanced scouts” were Stalions’ band of iPhone-toting buddies.

In Purdue’s case, the “advanced scouts” were the professional coaching staffs of two other Big Ten teams that had just played the Wolverines, and thus could battle-test the signs they stole as accurate.

Which would you rather have? Raw cell phone footage that still needs to be broken down, or highly experienced coaches just handing over their work?

Everyone would choose the Purdue option.

Even if Ohio State and Rutgers acquired Michigan signs via NCAA-legal game film or during game action, it doesn’t matter. Purdue didn’t do that work. The Boilermakers received stolen signs from advanced scouting. They cheated as much as Michigan.
 
#334      
Treat all in-person in-season scouting violations equally. Team punishment by voiding any wins by violating teams against teams they scouted (fairness). Individual punishment by firing any staff involved (deterrence). This would likely end the practice.
 
#336      
As a counterpoint, Dan Wetzel's latest. If true, then if Michigan gets slapped, others must, too for the sake of consistency.

Either everyone's guilty, or no one is

In Michigan’s case, the “advanced scouts” were Stalions’ band of iPhone-toting buddies.

In Purdue’s case, the “advanced scouts” were the professional coaching staffs of two other Big Ten teams that had just played the Wolverines, and thus could battle-test the signs they stole as accurate.

Which would you rather have? Raw cell phone footage that still needs to be broken down, or highly experienced coaches just handing over their work?

Everyone would choose the Purdue option.

Even if Ohio State and Rutgers acquired Michigan signs via NCAA-legal game film or during game action, it doesn’t matter. Purdue didn’t do that work. The Boilermakers received stolen signs from advanced scouting. They cheated as much as Michigan.
Here is the problem with the article sharing information about an opponent is not against the rules. That is not advance scouting.

What is against the rules is in person scouting and or electronic recording.

A scUM assistant was allegedly on the sidelines of CMU vs MSU this year. That is a violation of advance scouting. That instance by itself should warrant scUM forfeiting their game against MSU. That is black and white. It doesn’t matter about the rest let scUM argue their way out. It wouldn’t matter because you have a direct violation by an assistant being on the sidelines scouting a future opponent.

You can make an argument if an assistant paid someone to go to a game and record is a third party doing the scouting and is not directly against the rule but is against the intent.
 
#337      
As a counterpoint, Dan Wetzel's latest. If true, then if Michigan gets slapped, others must, too for the sake of consistency.

Either everyone's guilty, or no one is

In Michigan’s case, the “advanced scouts” were Stalions’ band of iPhone-toting buddies.

In Purdue’s case, the “advanced scouts” were the professional coaching staffs of two other Big Ten teams that had just played the Wolverines, and thus could battle-test the signs they stole as accurate.

Which would you rather have? Raw cell phone footage that still needs to be broken down, or highly experienced coaches just handing over their work?

Everyone would choose the Purdue option.

Even if Ohio State and Rutgers acquired Michigan signs via NCAA-legal game film or during game action, it doesn’t matter. Purdue didn’t do that work. The Boilermakers received stolen signs from advanced scouting. They cheated as much as Michigan.

Actually, I don't completely buy this. This is far from Michigan's strongest line of defense.

Stalions sent people to games specifically to record video. Purdue didn't send anyone anywhere. They accepted what was offered to them.

The questions I think need to be answered are: How long has this been going on? Who all was involved? And was there any quid-pro-quo?

You get enough of this going on for long enough, it turns into collusion, and that I think would be a violation of the league's "sportsmanship" standard.

But Purdue just taking tips from OSU and Rutgers this one time? Meh.
 
#341      
Hey, man, whatever helps you get through the night.

For those of you less interested in fantasy and more interested in what's actually going on out there, here's Michigan's response.


The letter says little about facts, although it questions whether Michigan gained any advantage from the Stalions operation, and also argues there is no evidence that Jim Harbaugh ordered, suggested, allowed, was aware of, or even had reason to suspect that Stalions was doing anything outside of the lines. Otherwise Michigan argues that it cannot debate facts because it has not been allowed to see any of the evidence being used against it. In fact, the league itself may not have seen key pieces of evidence, and is operating largely on rumors. If true, that's some seriously Kafkaesque shizzle.

Procedurally, the league is ignoring its own rules and established practices. In addition, the league should not use its "sportsmanship" rule to interfere with an NCAA investigation of the NCAA's scouting rule. And the league sportsmanship policy cannot be used to justify punishment of Jim Harbaugh, because the sportsmanship rule only allows for the league to punish the actual perpetrators (Connor Stalions) or the University. Suspending Harbaugh is not allowed until the league has proof that Harbaugh was directly involved. The NCAA can assume Harbaugh is responsible. The Big Ten has to prove it.

The University's position puts the league in a spot where there is no middle ground -- you either ban the team from the postseason or you let them be. I know some of you would love to see the postseason ban. But if you do that, you will get litigation. And there's no guarantee you win.
 
#343      
I’d suggest a Harbaugh suspension is a reasonable immediate response. Longer term, after all is investigated, a suitable punishment would be to identify all games Michigan scouted in person, then vacate all wins against those teams. And do the same for any other team caught doing illegal scouting. Fair and objective, right?
I suggest that the sanction be something along the lines of "you have to play next season with no headsets.". Players all get to play, coaches all get to coach, fans to get see great action. Just Michigan inconvenienced in it's playcalling.
 
#345      

MDchicago

Lake Norman NC
Actually, I don't completely buy this. This is far from Michigan's strongest line of defense.

Stalions sent people to games specifically to record video. Purdue didn't send anyone anywhere. They accepted what was offered to them.

The questions I think need to be answered are: How long has this been going on? Who all was involved? And was there any quid-pro-quo?

You get enough of this going on for long enough, it turns into collusion, and that I think would be a violation of the league's "sportsmanship" standard.

But Purdue just taking tips from OSU and Rutgers this one time? Meh.

Agree. Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
 
#349      
I suggest that the sanction be something along the lines of "you have to play next season with no headsets.". Players all get to play, coaches all get to coach, fans to get see great action. Just Michigan inconvenienced in it's playcalling.
I am in favor of creative sentencing in this case. For three years, scUM should be required to announce every play to the opposing team, giving them the same advantage that scUM cheated to obtain. If they lie -- lol, WHEN they lie about the play called, hit them with a 10-yard penalty. If they are as good as they claim to be, if knowing every play called by the opposing team is irrelevant, then they should be fine with the punishment and win every game by 30. If not, well, now they know what they did to every opponent since 2021.
 
#350      

BZuppke

Plainfield
To me when you understand the distinction Brett is making between what is commonly done and what scUM did you understand why this is such a big story. I also think Harbaugh has a reputation of skirting the rules and being too clever by half which makes him disliked by other coaches. What is this the third (fourth) run in with the ncaa under his watch?
 
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