Oh boy, here we go...
Illini Basketball 2017-2018
Oh boy, here we go...
Your takes are normally spot on. But trust me, in our Spread offense, you’re wrong about this one. The 4 perimeter guys all do the same thing. The only one who would have slightly different responsibilities is the pg but that’s in terms of calling plays and ensuring spacing before the flow starts. Once it starts the outside 4 do the exact same thing. This is part of the reason we have Leron, a “4,” running the 2 man game pick/handoff and rolls as the primary ball handler, or why we see AJ a “2” posting up on the block. 1,2,3,4 doesn’t matter in this offense. It’s where you are when the ball hits certain places, usually the wing, that dictates your next movement.
If we would ever reverse the ball more it would be come even more apparent.
I have played the game for a long time, but also have been a coach currently (AAU) for many years. One of the misconceptions in spread offense and motion spread is that the 4 is strictly a perimeter player. He is not. Actually, the spread offense often necessitates the 4 and 5 to move from low block to the corner, back to the low block on each side, which actually differentiates less between the 4/5 rather than 3/4.
Kipper (as well as Malcolm in early years) are SF players who do not have the ability to play PF because of their limitations moving inside and in the low block, especially when they are on the weak side (opposite side of the ball). Their limitations are even more pronounced playing the PF position on defense.
The reason they do is not by design, but rather the roster, with really only 2 players at PF/C (Finke, Black) whereas Finke in particular has his own limitations at the 4 (on the inside). So there are no options right now, even if Ebo gets more minutes (that IMO should).
This problem affects Alstork as well. If you watch Alstork at the 3, he needs space to get his shot off. He is not a bad shooter IMO, just that he can't get his shot off regularly without space. And the fact that we do not have inside presence at PF limits the kick-out opportunities for him, allowing the defense to stay tighter on him on the perimeter.
I have also played the game a long. I am also a coach. I happen to coach the spread system and have for the last 4-5 years, after learning it at a clinic directly from Coach Underwood, then learning the sets he runs out of at the same clinic 2 years later, directly from Coach Underwood, and had a side conversation with Stephen Gentry about finer details. This is on top of watching his championship productions DVD at least 50 times over the past 5 years and youtubing his games and other clinics where he taught spread. I think my spread knowledge is pretty solid and "misconceptions" are minimal.
There is no 4. There are the 4 players outside, and they are interchangeable. The only guy who you can maybe say is different is the PG because he has the responsibility of making sure everybody is spaced properly and choosing the entry based on what the defense is doing. But once it starts, he becomes interchangeable too. Don't believe me? Fine. That is from Coach Underwood himself. Quoted, paraphrased, whatever. In person, on DVDs/youtube videos, whatever. Depending on the flow or entry chosen, the guys who start on the top might end up on the wing or vice versa. Guess what? Nothing changes. Once the ball hits the wing, cutter 1 (opposite slot) cuts to the basket and the ball side corner, cutter 2 (opposite wing) cuts to the low block for a post up. The strong slot and the pinch post make the read for the 2 man game if the cutters aren't open. Doesn't matter who is there. If TJL ends up in the cutter 2 spot, he's gonna post up. If Leron ends up in the strong slot, he's going to (and has multiple times already) initiate the two man game.
After the 2 man game, everyone else fills back around the same 4 perimeter spots. If there's a drive baseline, the guy who was cutter 2 posting up, will then drift out to the corner for a kickout 3. Talk about that difference traditional position skill sets, and that's the same guy doing those things back to back.
Defensively yes, it matters more. Offensively, it does not. Yes we're doing certain things based on our roster limitations, changing the basics of spread is not one of them.
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Does this make you an insider?
Seriously, I love reading this kind of stuff from people who know what they're talking about. Obelix, too. Good conversation.
This argument could come down to whoever's fingers get tired the fastest.
FeelYourPaign
- So Cal
I clipped your post for brevity. Generally understand what you are saying, but another poster asked a question earlier that made sense to me and which I haven't seen answered. I get that from our offensive scheme, the 4 and the 3 are the same. What was asked was "doesn't it matter that if the other team is playing man2man, our positionless 3 is guarded by their 3 and our positionless 4 is guarded by their 4?".
The point was that Kipper would be more likely to have a size advantage over their 3 than their 4. That sounded reasonable to me. Wonder how you speak to this, since you do it well.
So that’s when I was talking about the offense having answers built in. Because of the interchangeability the defender will eventually be put at a disadvantage.
In this example, if kipper is playing the 4 and being guarded by a traditional 4, his advantage would come when he would be in position to initiate the two man game. Not too many bigs are working on how to get over pick and rolls, but rather how to hedge. So you have a defender working in a position he’s not familiar with. If he’s being guarded by the a traditional 2/3, his advantage would be as a cutter, in position to use his size to seal or post up. Through 2-3 reversals he will be in a couple different spots and depending on who’s guarding him, he’ll come into a position where he has an advantage.
For the record I’m not against us recruiting bigs. We need guys who can guard opposing teams bigs, no doubt. But they have to be capable on offense, because when more than one are in, one is playing outside and needs to have guard skills. It’s that simple.
5-Star your the best! Thank you for giving a great synopsis on what the offense is supposed to look like.
FeelYourPaign
- So Cal
Thanks FiveStar. Appreciate the time.
I think you confuse that the spread offense starts with 4 players on the outside with the 4 players being interchangeable in skills. A key part of the spread offense is getting into a pinch post set where the PF (or a player who has the skills to post up in the low block) moves on the low block cutting from the weak side (the opposite side of the ball). It does not mean that the players will always stay on the perimeter. Per my post, Kipper's limitation (and others) is that they do not have the ability to effectively post up in the low block (position 4 in the pic).
The fundamentals of the spread offense do not change, but its efficiency significantly diminishes if you do not have a PF type of player who can post in the low block. It simply allows the defense to extend on the perimeter which significantly limits other players (like Alstork) who need more space to get their shot off.
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I Bomb
Stylin' and Profilin'
FeelYourPaign
- So Cal
Clever
I think you confuse that the spread offense starts with 4 players on the outside with the 4 players being interchangeable in skills. A key part of the spread offense is getting into a pinch post set where the PF (or a player who has the skills to post up in the low block) moves on the low block cutting from the weak side (the opposite side of the ball). It does not mean that the players will always stay on the perimeter. Per my post, Kipper's limitation (and others) is that they do not have the ability to effectively post up in the low block (position 4 in the pic).
The fundamentals of the spread offense do not change, but its efficiency significantly diminishes if you do not have a PF type of player who can post in the low block. It simply allows the defense to extend on the perimeter which significantly limits other players (like Alstork) who need more space to get their shot off.
The biggest problem with this picture is this is what the offense looks like after a ball reversal or 2, rarely is this what our offense looks like on our initial cuts. Because of the fact that our 1 brings the ball up, our 4 man is generally our inbounder and then would be up top with our 1. This could change if say we dribble handoff, because then generally our 4 would set a pin down screen on the weakside for our 2 or 3 and then would become our 2nd cutter. However, without that pin down screen, just say 1 passes off to our wing the 4 man would be the 1st cutter and go ball side corner and wouldn't necessarily get down on that block until we have guys fill and run the cutters through again. This isn't as easy to explain if you dont know the offense but if you do its fairly simple. Your wings are generally your 2nd cutters, like I said unless you get a screen and replace and Brad usually keeps our wings as our 2/3 guys. Five Star is absolutely correct, 1-4 do everything the same and are all interchangeable pieces. We run some of this same spread and he is spot on.
You aren't always going to have the perfect pieces the 1st year on the job, like maybe Kipper as a 4. However, once he has all his guys that he has recruited it will be easier. They also work on those guys down in the post so they can utilize guards down there as well as the 4/5.
5Star, it sounds like you need do a tutorial on the spread offense for some on here. Some folk still want to see Hero Ball " AJ needs to create his own shot" AJ work within the offense just as you have explained and for those rare instances where AJ would find the ball in his hands near the end of the shot clock....He can create a shot. But if things work right, there should be lots of easy shots and layups.
This is a set on spread offense (pinch post) that BU himself has said, as explained by him, that he wants to get into often. If you do not have players who can effectively post up in the low block, coming from the weak side, it diminishes the utilization and effectiveness.
Nobody says that it is his fault that he does not have the pieces in his 1st year, or it is his fault that he utilizes Kipper as a 4. That is not the discussion. Just that the skillset needed for posting up in the low block can't be provided by Kipper or SF types who do not have the post up in the low block ability. We are very thin in the frontcourt, no doubt, and need more talent. A player like EJ Liddell (for example) would be perfect for that role especially if you can combine with some strong mobile presence at the 5 (let's say Okoro) and you can actually interchange the 4-5 players on many sets.
JFGsCoffeeMug
BU:1 Trash cans:0
- Chicago
[YOUTUBE]qCAGbM8StlA[/YOUTUBE]
Straight from the horse's mouth (@ 1:04): "The four perimeter spots are all interchangeable. 1 through 4. You can run anybody you want at those spots."
Straight from the horse's mouth (@ 1:04): "The four perimeter spots are all interchangeable. 1 through 4. You can run anybody you want at those spots."
He is talking about about the perimeter spots to start the offense. It does not mean that the skillset of the players are interchangeable. Otherwise, it would not matter what we have this year and that we are missing players in the frontcourt or in the future. You can stick Kipper, Alstork, DW, etc. at the 4 and would be fine offensively. Our offense, so far, against the good teams (actually middle of the pack teams - all losses) leaves a lot to be desired IMO, and it is not BU or the system. Just that we have personnel has gaps, not only on defense, but offense as well. Size and some combination of size and low post abilities are visibly missing form this team, JMO.
FeelYourPaign
- So Cal
Agreed. And he has also said that what we are running right now is very vanilla, as he hasn't installed very much. Typically uses the upcoming break to get some more into the playbook.
:thumb:
Learning the system is one thing, but there are some obvious limitations IMO on roster/frontcourt and skills/talent. There is a cap on what this team can accomplish even if they learn the system, and just making the tournament (likely as a bubble team) seems like the ceiling for this season.
I agree that we need more bigs, no matter the system, and I will be thrilled if we dance on a bubble.
Now I am trying to figure out how I became a three-post wonder.