Illini Basketball 2018-2019
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We've torn down the roster twice in the last two years. We don't get to keep shooting ourselves in the foot and then wonder why we can't win a footrace.
At this point, the current staff is who we blame for roster construction.
Well, to a point. If the previous staff had acquired better players, more of the current players on the roster would be talented seniors/juniors. On the other hand, if that had happened, theres a chance Groce is still HC so the point of the previous staff leaving the cupboard bare is almost always a moot point, though Groce pushed it to the extreme.
You're right though, this roster is constructed of mostly BU & co. guys. I don't see how having constant 5+ man classes will help bring better basketball here, which BU has basically said he's willing to do (or at least have more volatility in roster balance). BU understands college basketball better than I do, so I'll let him worry about that, but turnover of the magnitude we saw last offseason is obviously something to keep an eye on. Being young is only an excuse when you aren't constantly the one causing it to be a problem.
I don't doubt anyone's motives. We all want to root for a winner.
I disagree with you about the extent of current progress, and we probably can't reconcile that. I'm generally ok with disagreeing, but admit that it grates a bit when it seems like positives are tossed out because they don't fit the narrative, much like I'm sure you get annoyed when the flip happens.
Last year's recruiting class was a pretty good one, IMO, even if it didn't play out how we would have liked. There are three guys who look like pretty sure-fire keepers, and if you can do that every year, you've eventually got a full roster. The fact that most were signed in the spring doesn't change that fact.
I can give the team a pass against Georgetown because we were missing our best player, and I don't think that we should discount coming close against Gonzaga just because that same player went off. Trent is a part of this team, and the team should be evaluated accordingly.
The bottom-line numbers on wins and offensive/defensive efficiency are not where they need to be, but we can't ignore how difficult the schedule has been. High-major teams with tougher schedules to date include Duke, Kansas, and Florida State. That's it. You can't ask a very young team to hang with those three teams.
Should we be here? No, we shouldn't, nor do we want to be. Should we be alarmed about the number of bunnies that have been missed, the frequent lapses of defensive intensity, and Kipper turning into a ghost? Yep. And should we be satisfied with the current recruiting class? No, but the ink isn't dry yet.
I'm happy (well, not really) commiserating about how this all sucks. But it doesn't make me a bad fan if I don't want to write this all off as a loss just yet.
You can certainly put some of the blame on BU for the exodus of players after last season but I’m not sure he gets the blame for thenprior season. He lost Tilmon and Pickett who he hadn’t recruited and kept Trent and got Mark Smith. Mark Smith turned out to be a bust as far as last year was concerned - we’ll see how the rest of his career turns out. He was stuck late in the game trying to fill holes which is why he ended up with guys like Vesel and Eboigbodin. I’m not really arguing that BU doesn’t deserve the blame for where we are but he has only had part of one recruiting season and part of another to put things in order. Clearly having the kind of turnover we had last year is not conducive to rebuilding and we can’t afford that every year but with the exception of Smith who BU really wanted, none of the other players who left were “his guys” . Black left for another opportunity, TJL saw things getting crowded for PT, Eboigbodin was not a good fit. Finke didn’t see much reason to stay and had a chance to play a season with his brother. Who can blame him? I think that while it’s a tough pill to swallow losing all those players there was definitely a problem with the chemistry and culture of the team. It looks much better this year
Fair enough, but what you are saying is practically that you do not think we are on the right track, yet you have hope that the staff will turn it around. That is not much different to what I am saying (with less criticism) other than we probably disagree on the chances of that happening without some drastic momentum change in recruiting. I have less of a disagreement with that, more with some opinions that we currently are on the right track.
I'm not sure I've seen many (there are a few, granted) that think we are currently on the right track. I think most people on here think that it's too early to say if we are on the right or wrong track.
Very folksy, but pretty off point as well. Blame Coach U for Black having his degree and leaving after 4 years to play pro ball...really?
Blame Coach U for Finke being a 5th year guy who wanted to go play with his brother, whom we didn't want....o.....k.
Blame Coach U for Vessel and Ebo leaving? Really?
Blame Coach U for Smith seeing at least 2 better PGs on our team and wanting to play that postion?
Same for Lucas who saw PG as a crowd house.
So yeah, double Bob...
RichBradIllini
- Peoria
Post Maui interview:
"Q. Trent, after not getting a win here what's your biggest concern or what do you think you guys need to adjust to most?
TRENT FRAZIER: As a leader, like he said, I know what Coach Underwood wants out of this program. And I know what he wants out of this system and what the offense he runs. I think for me I got to do a better job as a leader. I'm not a veteran, but I'm a veteran. Down the stretch I was a little vocal but I got to be more vocal. I got to bring my teammates together. We kind of tend to just go our separate ways and get mad at each other and I think that's what caused us not to get a win tonight. But for me I just got to be more of a leader, be more vocal and we just got to stay together, man. I think that's the biggest thing. Coach -- I think coach is doing an unbelievable job with this program. He's trying to change it, he's working his !!! off. I'm with him. I'm going to come out and play hard every night, whether the ball's going in or not and I'm just going to give it my all."
Leadership won't make us a title contender but IMO it's the key that could bring us some wins and respectability this season. BU's pre-season hype on Kipper's personal growth and willingness to take on a leader role was a reason to hope but so far it's one of the biggest disappointments of the season for me. Kipper was the logical person to step up (along with Frazier) and be an adult on the floor. His acting like a baby and giving the shoulder to a ND player was one of the dumbest moves I've seen, and, quintessential Kipper. This should be the guy laying it out to these kids how you carry yourself on the floor and come together as a team. He looks as lost and immature as last year.
GB looks like a leader and certainly Frazier can be but until somebody steps up and says, "this is who we are" and players can see and believe it, nothing's going to change.
W/o leadership, they will continue to be stunted...just 5 guys running on the floor and going nowhere.
"Q. Trent, after not getting a win here what's your biggest concern or what do you think you guys need to adjust to most?
TRENT FRAZIER: As a leader, like he said, I know what Coach Underwood wants out of this program. And I know what he wants out of this system and what the offense he runs. I think for me I got to do a better job as a leader. I'm not a veteran, but I'm a veteran. Down the stretch I was a little vocal but I got to be more vocal. I got to bring my teammates together. We kind of tend to just go our separate ways and get mad at each other and I think that's what caused us not to get a win tonight. But for me I just got to be more of a leader, be more vocal and we just got to stay together, man. I think that's the biggest thing. Coach -- I think coach is doing an unbelievable job with this program. He's trying to change it, he's working his !!! off. I'm with him. I'm going to come out and play hard every night, whether the ball's going in or not and I'm just going to give it my all."
Leadership won't make us a title contender but IMO it's the key that could bring us some wins and respectability this season. BU's pre-season hype on Kipper's personal growth and willingness to take on a leader role was a reason to hope but so far it's one of the biggest disappointments of the season for me. Kipper was the logical person to step up (along with Frazier) and be an adult on the floor. His acting like a baby and giving the shoulder to a ND player was one of the dumbest moves I've seen, and, quintessential Kipper. This should be the guy laying it out to these kids how you carry yourself on the floor and come together as a team. He looks as lost and immature as last year.
GB looks like a leader and certainly Frazier can be but until somebody steps up and says, "this is who we are" and players can see and believe it, nothing's going to change.
W/o leadership, they will continue to be stunted...just 5 guys running on the floor and going nowhere.
Sadly, thus far I would take 2017 Kipper over 2018 Kipper in a heartbeat.
I think it's more accurate to say that it's a mixed bag. That means the wheels of progress are turning slower than I'd prefer, but that there's also positive signs that might get us where we want to be eventually. A couple of the right guys showing up would indeed help quite a bit.
Smith is currently leading Missouri in scoring and is second in rebounds and assists. He has only three turnovers on the year.
Ob
You keep mentioning recruiting as if Underwood can't recruit. But that's not true. He is at least average based on our really really small sample size. We will always consistently have top 30 recruiting classes at this university. Our issue was moreso that Groce got the recruits... but then there was nothing more.
Player development is more important imo. Giorgi, Williams, Jordan, and soon Griffin are players that we will be able to look at as a fan base and say "wow Underwood really molded them into something special." Wins and losses in year 2 don't bother me as long as it isn't something horrendous. They will bother me next year.
You keep mentioning recruiting as if Underwood can't recruit. But that's not true. He is at least average based on our really really small sample size. We will always consistently have top 30 recruiting classes at this university. Our issue was moreso that Groce got the recruits... but then there was nothing more.
Player development is more important imo. Giorgi, Williams, Jordan, and soon Griffin are players that we will be able to look at as a fan base and say "wow Underwood really molded them into something special." Wins and losses in year 2 don't bother me as long as it isn't something horrendous. They will bother me next year.
Joel Goodson
- respect my decision™
Good for him. Doesn't negate his epic flop last season.
And his epic flop last season won't diminish his contributions this year and beyond. There's a reason teams hold on to freshman, often even ones who struggle. Turns out they become sophomores.
Joel Goodson
- respect my decision™
No doubt.
You don't say. Smith left of his own volition. Am sure the vast majority of us wanted him to stay.
IllFanInMi
I
Guest
I believe player development is very hard to assign to any one coach, trainer, parent, player, etc.., AJ was a 4 star recruit, who in year 3 had a minor breakthrough and now having a breakthrough year. He has worked his arse off and deserves it. Giorgi hasn’t been here remotely long enough to assign his pleasantly surprising play to BU. Griffin is a guy that has tools, but a coaching staff can indeed mold. DW was a legit 4 star kid, and although he does a lot, this staff needs to coach his offense up!
Mark Smith appears to be doing FAR better under Clownzo than under BU, Finke regressed under BU, KN is regressing. Black had a great year, but he was a 4 star and in his 4th year, his play may have had very little to do with this staff outside of OA.
For me, if you make 3 stars play like 4 stars, or 4’s like 5’s, then you’re seriously developing players. I would expect a staff to have most of their high level recruits be productive, especially by year 4.
IllFanInMi
I
Guest
We WILL have a VERY difficult job making strides without better recruiting balance. I think so many here are rating this class based on production and promise from Giorgi, Ayo, and to a much lesser extent Griffin. I’m also very encouraged by those three! The fact that Higgs, Samba, and so far Tev appear to be recruits who will contribute very little, if anything (really hoping Tev does), and given they’re physical skill sets are what we DESPERATELY needed makes this class less impactful than it appeared on paper.
If, and so far January provides a start, BU can shore up the balance and get our front court talent more aligned with our back court, and retain and develop our current bigs, we can make big strides. If he proves unsuccessful in that area he likely will be on a pretty hot seat.
It’s great to be optimistic, but doing so without tangible fundamentally sound reasons is not being realistic.
If, and so far January provides a start, BU can shore up the balance and get our front court talent more aligned with our back court, and retain and develop our current bigs, we can make big strides. If he proves unsuccessful in that area he likely will be on a pretty hot seat.
It’s great to be optimistic, but doing so without tangible fundamentally sound reasons is not being realistic.
GortTheRobot
- North Bethesda, Maryland
I believe the gravity of our situation is in direct proportion to the length of this post by typically concise Mr. Coldagelli. Regardless of the length, this is succinct and spot on. Bravo sir, bravo.
Who do you propose we blame for the current roster construction?
You don't get to say "oh man, lots of roster turnover is what is causing this to be a rough rebuild, we shouldn't blame the coach" because the coach is the one who creates the turnover.
And the idea that anyone is looking at our roster and thinking "too much talent, I better go some place else" is laughable.
I don't know what you consider average and I have said multiple times that class averages that are highly influenced by number of recruits are highly suspect and really meaningless (especially when this high number is also due to the high level of attrition). But you will have a hard time convincing me that recruiting is where it should be, or that recruiting since 2003 is where it should have been (you can read my previous post on that). Recruiting is not going well so far in BU's tenure. The overall talent is not on par to compete for B1G and positional recruiting (the main culprit in Groce's tenure) remains a huge problem. There is currently a huge talent deficiency in the frontcourt and have missed on a great number of frontcourt recruits. Fall recruiting (the cornerstone of successful recruiting) has been lagging big time.
As far as development or system, I mentioned before that the frequent fan portrayal of BU as a master of player development and the genius of system that will outsmart and outperform other excellent coaches in the B1G and around the country has not been justified.
While Groce's tenure was characterized by being pretty much an NIT team, something that we all thought was not acceptable, BU's tenure (and current expectations) so far have been below that. Taking an NIT level team of an entire era and making it a consistent NCAA team is not impossibility that many present, neither does it necessitate driving the team to the bottom before some supposedly miraculous ascend.
Furthermore, the claims and implications that current state was expected by fans is not true either. I had looked at the 2017-18 prediction poll right before last season started (before the EIU game), and 75% were claiming NCAA, mid-90% (90%+) at least NIT. We ended up with one of the worst season in 20+ years and current expectations by analysts and even our own fans are not that high for this season either. So no, I do not buy the "we all knew" argument either.
I don't really understand what that progress is though or that mixed bag. I could understand if recruiting was not going well but our record (evidence of system superiority) was better than previous regime. I could also understand if our record was not good, but we had made significant progress in recruiting. Both of those instances would indeed be a mixed bag. But when both of them are not going well, that is not the right direction for the program.
Personally, I am left with hope that direction will drastically change (especially in recruiting). Maybe we start landing some big time frontcourt recruits. That is honestly my hope and indeed would constitute progress. But again that is just hope, I can't honestly say that it based on actual evidence so far in BU's tenure.
IllFanInMi
I
Guest
Thank you, I got gang tackled yesterday by many here for expressing very similar opinions. I didn’t go back and check post histories, but I would not be surprised if many were part of the hype parade of NIT/NCAA predictions. Either those folks don’t post much anymore, or have now jumped on the have patience, what did you expect in year 2 of this rebuild bandwagon. That’s fine to alter your position, but I really don’t understand those who don’t respect the counter opinion of others who aren’t on the orange kool aid train.
We all have a right to where we think this rebuild is at and headed, it’s a forum and meant for healthy debating!
We all have a right to where we think this rebuild is at and headed, it’s a forum and meant for healthy debating!
It seems that you complete
It seems like you completely missed the entire point of that post.
Let me reiterate it. We have a really really SMALL sample size to look at currently. So whatever predisposition you have is meaningless. It is about to be game 8 of year 2. Your judgements are all premature and all based on assumption. Just like everyone else on this board. Nobody for sure knows what we have with Underwood yet. Nobody will really know until the end of next season.
So many fans on this board are deciding to trust the process and see what we get. That includes me. All you are doing is arbitrarily projecting concepts that are based on a single season as if it's some foregone conclusion. There are two full seasons left imo before anyone can be asserting what we have or don't have with Underwood at the helm. If it ends up being anything like what Bob Huggins and Frank Martin have established I will be satisfied.
It seems like you completely missed the entire point of that post.
Let me reiterate it. We have a really really SMALL sample size to look at currently. So whatever predisposition you have is meaningless. It is about to be game 8 of year 2. Your judgements are all premature and all based on assumption. Just like everyone else on this board. Nobody for sure knows what we have with Underwood yet. Nobody will really know until the end of next season.
So many fans on this board are deciding to trust the process and see what we get. That includes me. All you are doing is arbitrarily projecting concepts that are based on a single season as if it's some foregone conclusion. There are two full seasons left imo before anyone can be asserting what we have or don't have with Underwood at the helm. If it ends up being anything like what Bob Huggins and Frank Martin have established I will be satisfied.
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