I agree that rebuilds can be expedited with a couple of key players but I’m not sure everyone is being realistic about expectations. We have 7 new players, one senior and a grad transfer coming off an ACL injury. Think of the difference having Black or Finke this year would make - not only because of their college experience but also because of their familiarity with Underwood’s system. We are forced to play underclassman significant minutes and we have to live with the mistakes of youth as well as learning BU’s game. I will be happy if the team grows with each game and expect them to win a couple games they are not supposed to this year. As good as Ayo is, he forced some shots driving (against ND) and got stuffed. Expect Giorgi to continue his excellent trajectory and Jones and Griffin to contribute more too. Damone is solid and Feliz is a good role player. We will have Samba, Higgs and January to help as well. I expect them to figure out quite a few things this year and play much smarter next year. I would love to add Kofi Cockburn but either way I expect nothing less than making it to the dance in 2020!
Well, to a point. If the previous staff had acquired better players, more of the current players on the roster would be talented seniors/juniors. On the other hand, if that had happened, theres a chance Groce is still HC so the point of the previous staff leaving the cupboard bare is almost always a moot point, though Groce pushed it to the extreme.We've torn down the roster twice in the last two years. We don't get to keep shooting ourselves in the foot and then wonder why we can't win a footrace.
At this point, the current staff is who we blame for roster construction.
I don't doubt anyone's motives. We all want to root for a winner.If you mean the bandwagon of current criticism, I am certainly on that current bandwagon. And I am certainly on the bandwagon that building a consistent NCAA tournament team can't be achieved without strong recruiting beyond current course of speed.
Just to clarify, I am in no bandwagon that says that BU will never achieve NCAA tournament. As said in previous post in this thread, I actually think it is very likely that we make the NCAA tournament sometime in the next 1-2 years based primarily on Trent/Ayo. But the elements of building, or rebuilding, a consistent NCAA tournament and B1G contender are certainly not there right now, with some serious concerns of recruiting direction.
When BU got the job the job I had some serious concerns about recruiting. Joe Henricksen had mentioned (I believe it was an audio interview) the same concerns. Yet, I was very encouraged and praised him for the hiring or Orlando and Chin, both of whom I consider strong recruiting assistants.
Again, I do not think what we have seen so far is promising in terms of building a consistent NCAA team and B1G contender. That is the reason of my criticism. I do not think we are on the right track, especially in recruiting. But it does not mean that IF the staff drastically turns it around, and that is a big IF IMO, that I would (and I imagine others) not be as happy (or even more).
You can certainly put some of the blame on BU for the exodus of players after last season but I’m not sure he gets the blame for thenprior season. He lost Tilmon and Pickett who he hadn’t recruited and kept Trent and got Mark Smith. Mark Smith turned out to be a bust as far as last year was concerned - we’ll see how the rest of his career turns out. He was stuck late in the game trying to fill holes which is why he ended up with guys like Vesel and Eboigbodin. I’m not really arguing that BU doesn’t deserve the blame for where we are but he has only had part of one recruiting season and part of another to put things in order. Clearly having the kind of turnover we had last year is not conducive to rebuilding and we can’t afford that every year but with the exception of Smith who BU really wanted, none of the other players who left were “his guys” . Black left for another opportunity, TJL saw things getting crowded for PT, Eboigbodin was not a good fit. Finke didn’t see much reason to stay and had a chance to play a season with his brother. Who can blame him? I think that while it’s a tough pill to swallow losing all those players there was definitely a problem with the chemistry and culture of the team. It looks much better this yearWe've torn down the roster twice in the last two years. We don't get to keep shooting ourselves in the foot and then wonder why we can't win a footrace.
At this point, the current staff is who we blame for roster construction.
Should we be here? No, we shouldn't, nor do we want to be. Should we be alarmed about the number of bunnies that have been missed, the frequent lapses of defensive intensity, and Kipper turning into a ghost? Yep. And should we be satisfied with the current recruiting class? No, but the ink isn't dry yet.
I'm not sure I've seen many (there are a few, granted) that think we are currently on the right track. I think most people on here think that it's too early to say if we are on the right or wrong track.Fair enough, but what you are saying is practically that you do not think we are on the right track, yet you have hope that the staff will turn it around. That is not much different to what I am saying (with less criticism) other than we probably disagree on the chances of that happening without some drastic momentum change in recruiting. I have less of a disagreement with that, more with some opinions that we currently are on the right track.
We've torn down the roster twice in the last two years. We don't get to keep shooting ourselves in the foot and then wonder why we can't win a footrace.
At this point, the current staff is who we blame for roster construction.
Post Maui interview:
"Q. Trent, after not getting a win here what's your biggest concern or what do you think you guys need to adjust to most?
TRENT FRAZIER: As a leader, like he said, I know what Coach Underwood wants out of this program. And I know what he wants out of this system and what the offense he runs. I think for me I got to do a better job as a leader. I'm not a veteran, but I'm a veteran. Down the stretch I was a little vocal but I got to be more vocal. I got to bring my teammates together. We kind of tend to just go our separate ways and get mad at each other and I think that's what caused us not to get a win tonight. But for me I just got to be more of a leader, be more vocal and we just got to stay together, man. I think that's the biggest thing. Coach -- I think coach is doing an unbelievable job with this program. He's trying to change it, he's working his !!! off. I'm with him. I'm going to come out and play hard every night, whether the ball's going in or not and I'm just going to give it my all."
Leadership won't make us a title contender but IMO it's the key that could bring us some wins and respectability this season. BU's pre-season hype on Kipper's personal growth and willingness to take on a leader role was a reason to hope but so far it's one of the biggest disappointments of the season for me. Kipper was the logical person to step up (along with Frazier) and be an adult on the floor. His acting like a baby and giving the shoulder to a ND player was one of the dumbest moves I've seen, and, quintessential Kipper. This should be the guy laying it out to these kids how you carry yourself on the floor and come together as a team. He looks as lost and immature as last year.
GB looks like a leader and certainly Frazier can be but until somebody steps up and says, "this is who we are" and players can see and believe it, nothing's going to change.
W/o leadership, they will continue to be stunted...just 5 guys running on the floor and going nowhere.
I think it's more accurate to say that it's a mixed bag. That means the wheels of progress are turning slower than I'd prefer, but that there's also positive signs that might get us where we want to be eventually. A couple of the right guys showing up would indeed help quite a bit.Fair enough, but what you are saying is practically that you do not think we are on the right track, yet you have hope that the staff will turn it around. That is not much different to what I am saying (with less criticism) other than we probably disagree on the chances of that happening without some drastic momentum change in recruiting. I have less of a disagreement with that, more with some opinions that we currently are on the right track.
You can certainly put some of the blame on BU for the exodus of players after last season but I’m not sure he gets the blame for thenprior season. He lost Tilmon and Pickett who he hadn’t recruited and kept Trent and got Mark Smith. Mark Smith turned out to be a bust as far as last year was concerned - we’ll see how the rest of his career turns out.
If you mean the bandwagon of current criticism, I am certainly on that current bandwagon. And I am certainly on the bandwagon that building a consistent NCAA tournament team can't be achieved without strong recruiting beyond current course of speed.
Just to clarify, I am in no bandwagon that says that BU will never achieve NCAA tournament. As said in previous post in this thread, I actually think it is very likely that we make the NCAA tournament sometime in the next 1-2 years based primarily on Trent/Ayo. But the elements of building, or rebuilding, a consistent NCAA tournament and B1G contender are certainly not there right now, with some serious concerns of recruiting direction.
When BU got the job the job I had some serious concerns about recruiting. Joe Henricksen had mentioned (I believe it was an audio interview) the same concerns. Yet, I was very encouraged and praised him for the hiring or Orlando and Chin, both of whom I consider strong recruiting assistants.
Again, I do not think what we have seen so far is promising in terms of building a consistent NCAA team and B1G contender. That is the reason of my criticism. I do not think we are on the right track, especially in recruiting. But it does not mean that IF the staff drastically turns it around, and that is a big IF IMO, that I would (and I imagine others) not be as happy (or even more).
Smith is currently leading Missouri in scoring and is second in rebounds and assists. He has only three turnovers on the year.
And his epic flop last season won't diminish his contributions this year and beyond. There's a reason teams hold on to freshman, often even ones who struggle. Turns out they become sophomores.Good for him. Doesn't negate his epic flop last season.
And his epic flop last season won't diminish his contributions this year and beyond.
There's a reason teams hold on to freshman, often even ones who struggle. Turns out they become sophomores.
Ob
You keep mentioning recruiting as if Underwood can't recruit. But that's not true. He is at least average based on our really really small sample size. We will always consistently have top 30 recruiting classes at this university. Our issue was moreso that Groce got the recruits... but then there was nothing more.
Player development is more important imo. Giorgi, Williams, Jordan, and soon Griffin are players that we will be able to look at as a fan base and say "wow Underwood really molded them into something special." Wins and losses in year 2 don't bother me as long as it isn't something horrendous. They will bother me next year.
Yes, limiting shots would be great. We are not doing that. We are not just allowing shots, but allowing the easiest, highest percentage shots that anyone can take on a basketball court. And compounding this is the fact that our offense is not consistently taking advantage of the turnovers we are creating.
This is a tired message board trope, so it pains me to point it out, but rebounding is not a synonym for height. Rebounding is a skill that can be taught. [gritting teeth] Look at Michigan State.
I tend to agree with you we are not going to become a great defensive team. But I think there is a middle ground between "great defensive team" and "hemorrhaging layups" and we need to start doing whatever is humanly possible to get there.
Very folksy, but pretty off point as well. Blame Coach U for Black having his degree and leaving after 4 years to play pro ball...really?
Blame Coach U for Finke being a 5th year guy who wanted to go play with his brother, whom we didn't want....o.....k.
Blame Coach U for Vessel and Ebo leaving? Really?
Blame Coach U for Smith seeing at least 2 better PGs on our team and wanting to play that postion?
Same for Lucas who saw PG as a crowd house.
So yeah, double Bob...
You keep mentioning recruiting as if Underwood can't recruit. But that's not true. He is at least average based on our really really small sample size. We will always consistently have top 30 recruiting classes at this university. Our issue was moreso that Groce got the recruits... but then there was nothing more.
Player development is more important imo. Giorgi, Williams, Jordan, and soon Griffin are players that we will be able to look at as a fan base and say "wow Underwood really molded them into something special." Wins and losses in year 2 don't bother me as long as it isn't something horrendous. They will bother me next year.
I think it's more accurate to say that it's a mixed bag. That means the wheels of progress are turning slower than I'd prefer, but that there's also positive signs that might get us where we want to be eventually. A couple of the right guys showing up would indeed help quite a bit.
I don't know what you consider average and I have said multiple times that class averages that are highly influenced by number of recruits are highly suspect and really meaningless (especially when this high number is also due to the high level of attrition). But you will have a hard time convincing me that recruiting is where it should be, or that recruiting since 2003 is where it should have been (you can read my previous post on that). Recruiting is not going well so far in BU's tenure. The overall talent is not on par to compete for B1G and positional recruiting (the main culprit in Groce's tenure) remains a huge problem. There is currently a huge talent deficiency in the frontcourt and have missed on a great number of frontcourt recruits. Fall recruiting (the cornerstone of successful recruiting) has been lagging big time.
As far as development or system, I mentioned before that the frequent fan portrayal of BU as a master of player development and the genius of system that will outsmart and outperform other excellent coaches in the B1G and around the country has not been justified.
While Groce's tenure was characterized by being pretty much an NIT team, something that we all thought was not acceptable, BU's tenure (and current expectations) so far have been below that. Taking an NIT level team of an entire era and making it a consistent NCAA team is not impossibility that many present, neither does it necessitate driving the team to the bottom before some supposedly miraculous ascend.
Furthermore, the claims and implications that current state was expected by fans is not true either. I had looked at the 2017-18 prediction poll right before last season started (before the EIU game), and 75% were claiming NCAA, mid-90% (90%+) at least NIT. We ended up with one of the worst season in 20+ years and current expectations by analysts and even our own fans are not that high for this season either. So no, I do not buy the "we all knew" argument either.