Illini Basketball

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#676      

Ransom Stoddard

Ordained Dudeist Priest
Bloomington, IL
Underwood gets compared to Izzo alot for their fire and demeanor. I was not as deeply into these things then as I am now, but what was the thought on izzo after his first 5-6 years? This is really just my curiosity, but heres what I see…

1. Izzo was the guy who followed the guy, which is always a difficult spot to be in, even if the guy hand selects you. (Underwood had the benefit of any level of success endearing him to the fan base)

2. How does Izzo compare to Jud in demeanor? (groce was not as outwardly intense as BU, and the opposite type of guy usually seems to get hired after the previous one is fired)

3. Izzo took over in a different time, with intense coaches (Vs let’s say calmer nowadays) being the norm. In the big ten alone you had knight and keady, which probably made Izzo look like a teddy bear. (Izzo, Fran and BU go crazy in the big ten now, who else in our conference and nationally?)

Was there a time early in his career where people were like Izzo is too crazy, he can’t do this?
Jud was very fiery, and his players loved him.

As far as
Was there a time early in his career where people were like Izzo is too crazy, he can’t do this?
I don't think so, at least not about his demeanor. His first 2 seasons were a dropoff from Jud's level of success (NIT vs NCAA), but that was followed by SS, FF, NC in consecutive years.

Random trivia: Tom Crean and Brian Gregory were assistants to Izzo in those early years.
 
#677      

pruman91

Paducah, Ky
Jud was very fiery, and his players loved him.

As far as

I don't think so, at least not about his demeanor. His first 2 seasons were a dropoff from Jud's level of success (NIT vs NCAA), but that was followed by SS, FF, NC in consecutive years.

Random trivia: Tom Crean and Brian Gregory were assistants to Izzo in those early years.
I remember Jud being fiery and one game somehow the ball came to him on the sidelines and Jud being already upset bounced the ball hard on the court in front of him and it came back and hit him hard right in the face.....He was a character for sure....
 
#679      
I remember Jud being fiery and one game somehow the ball came to him on the sidelines and Jud being already upset bounced the ball hard on the court in front of him and it came back and hit him hard right in the face.....He was a character for sure....
I was at that game sitting in direct line where I could see Jud's face.....it was bright red for several minutes....don't know how it didn't break or at least bloody his nose....but he carried on as if nothing had happened :LOL:
 
#680      
Since our loss, I've been pondering the idea of roster construction and why on paper this team looked to be solid, but ultimately didn't end up living up to that potential. Love thoughts from others on factors that BU needs to consider for next year's roster construction: buy vs. build, old vs. young, new vs. existing, role vs. star, 1v1 vs. team play, offense vs. Defense, etc etc

My take is that there is of course going to need to be a balance of all of these factors, but what I would prioritize first is culture fit, age/experience and role. I would like us to go after a playmaker that wants their hands on the ball and can create off the dribble in a 1:1 situation. I then want to surround that person with seasoned role players...seasoned doesn't mean grad transfer or 1 year rentals only, but someone who has played college ball already and is comfortable playing a role on the team, just trying to do it at a larger school or more competitive conference (a la Plummer or feliz). Lastly, this season I would prioritize finding culture fits. BU bent over backwards to change his style/approach to fit the team he had. I think that was a no-no. Need to find guys that are ok with being yelled at from time to time and sat on the bench...players with enough IQ to not try and repeat the sins of the past.
To me, the answer is easy. We NEED an experienced, true PG. You need someone who sees the court like a QB. Most of our guys this year saw the court like a RB. They were looking for a gap to get to the rim, rather than drawing the defense and finding someone open. The only guy who really thought like a PG was 6'10" and more often than not, needed to do the opposite.
Anyone watch Markquis Nowell last night? Look at his size and shooting percentages at Little Rock. If we had brought him in half the people on this board would be going nuts. 5'8", pretty pedestrian shooting %'s... what you miss is those assist numbers and off the chart's toughness/fearlessness. We need a guy like that.

Do we need better shooters? Sure, but more importantly we need better shots.
 
#681      
Well, I was responding to someone who's argument was only Big Ten championships...But if you want to talk winning percentage. From 2009-2011 Bruce Weber won 65 games and lost 29 games, had a large segment of the fanbase done with him, wasn't quite bad enough to get fired, and he was gone after one more bad year. Over the last 3 years, 2021-2023, Brad Underwood has 67 wins and 30 losses. I'll grant you that Brad's best 3 year window 68 wins and 27 losses is a higher win percentage than 2009-2011 Bruce Weber, but I don't think 1 win/year over that timeframe is a much much higher percentage or that the fanbase is after someone slightly better than the years before Bruce Weber was fired.

When BU was hired, if the fanbase was told that in year's 3-6 of his tenure he would average a 22-10 record with 2 total tournament wins, I'm not so sure the hire would have been viewed favorably.
Appreciate your detailed response. However, I will remain a BU fan and will question other fans who are not satisfied with our win loss percentages over the last 3 years.
2022-2023 was and experiment by Underwood in trying to bring together a pretty disparate group. It clearly did not work as well as we would have liked. However, the logic based on the number of players we lost, made sense.
 
#682      
I remember Jud being fiery and one game somehow the ball came to him on the sidelines and Jud being already upset bounced the ball hard on the court in front of him and it came back and hit him hard right in the face.....He was a character for sure....
That's one of those life lessons that sticks with ya the first time.
 
#683      
Video Game Attack GIF by CAPCOM
To me, the answer is easy. We NEED an experienced, true PG. You need someone who sees the court like a QB. Most of our guys this year saw the court like a RB. They were looking for a gap to get to the rim, rather than drawing the defense and finding someone open. The only guy who really thought like a PG was 6'10" and more often than not, needed to do the opposite.
Anyone watch Markquis Nowell last night? Look at his size and shooting percentages at Little Rock. If we had brought him in half the people on this board would be going nuts. 5'8", pretty pedestrian shooting %'s... what you miss is those assist numbers and off the chart's toughness/fearlessness. We need a guy like that.

Do we need better shooters? Sure, but more importantly we need better shots.
Preach GIF
 
#684      

danielb927

Orange Krush Class of 2013
Rochester, MN
Appreciate your detailed response. However, I will remain a BU fan and will question other fans who are not satisfied with our win loss percentages over the last 3 years.
2022-2023 was and experiment by Underwood in trying to bring together a pretty disparate group. It clearly did not work as well as we would have liked. However, the logic based on the number of players we lost, made sense.

There's also an important typo to note in the OP's stats.

Weber had 39 losses, not 29, from the '09 to '11 seasons. That changes the comparison quite a bit.

Let's look at these two windows plus two other 3-year stretches that reasonably bound the recent success (or not) of Illinois basketball.
- Underwood's current performance (2021-23). Solid tournament teams. "Acceptability" currently under discussion.
- Weber's later years (2009-11). Two tournaments, one bubble team. Deemed "acceptable" (but barely) by the powers that were.
- Bill Self's tenure (2002-04). Top 4 seed every year. What we might consider "the ideal".
- John Groce's last 3 years (2015-17). No tourney or even true bubble hopes. What we might consider "the worst".

Underwood - 69%
Weber - 62.5%
Self - 76%
Groce - 53%

Graphically, it's pretty clear that in the grand scheme of recent Illini hoops teams, Underwood is neither late-years Weber nor Self.

1679677213669.png
 
#685      
To me, the answer is easy. We NEED an experienced, true PG. You need someone who sees the court like a QB. Most of our guys this year saw the court like a RB. They were looking for a gap to get to the rim, rather than drawing the defense and finding someone open. The only guy who really thought like a PG was 6'10" and more often than not, needed to do the opposite.
Anyone watch Markquis Nowell last night? Look at his size and shooting percentages at Little Rock. If we had brought him in half the people on this board would be going nuts. 5'8", pretty pedestrian shooting %'s... what you miss is those assist numbers and off the chart's toughness/fearlessness. We need a guy like that.

Do we need better shooters? Sure, but more importantly we need better shots.
Yeah, the clear takeaway from the K-State-MSU game is guard play is incredibly important. Nowell, Hoggard and Walker were trading punches all night.
 
#686      

Joel Goodson

respect my decision™
There's also an important typo to note in the OP's stats.

Weber had 39 losses, not 29, from the '09 to '11 seasons. That changes the comparison quite a bit.

Let's look at these two windows plus two other 3-year stretches that reasonably bound the recent success (or not) of Illinois basketball.
- Underwood's current performance (2021-23). Solid tournament teams. "Acceptability" currently under discussion.
- Weber's later years (2009-11). Two tournaments, one bubble team. Deemed "acceptable" (but barely) by the powers that were.
- Bill Self's tenure (2002-04). Top 4 seed every year. What we might consider "the ideal".
- John Groce's last 3 years (2015-17). No tourney or even true bubble hopes. What we might consider "the worst".

Underwood - 69%
Weber - 62.5%
Self - 76%
Groce - 53%

Graphically, it's pretty clear that in the grand scheme of recent Illini hoops teams, Underwood is neither late-years Weber nor Self.

View attachment 24464

good stuff. Just want to point out that Self inherited a lot from Kruger.
 
#687      
Do any of the insiders know the timeline for player meetings typically? Are they this week?

And if they’re in progress, how exactly are they going?
 
#696      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
No question that Lon left the program in great shape. I can think of 37 reasons why Self left it in better shape..
I mean, there’s no questioning that Self left Weber some superstars. But 37-2 was a product of those guys and Weber gelling and becoming more than the sum of their parts over two years.

It’s close either way. (Preseason #8 vs preseason #12) Two great situations and at a moment in CBB history where it really mattered what roster you were walking into, that isn’t so much a thing anymore.
 
#698      
Do any of the insiders know the timeline for player meetings typically? Are they this week?

And if they’re in progress, how exactly are they going?
The question is….is BU screaming MFer’s at them??? 🤣 Sorry….Not Sorry!
 
#700      
There's also an important typo to note in the OP's stats.

Weber had 39 losses, not 29, from the '09 to '11 seasons. That changes the comparison quite a bit.

Let's look at these two windows plus two other 3-year stretches that reasonably bound the recent success (or not) of Illinois basketball.
- Underwood's current performance (2021-23). Solid tournament teams. "Acceptability" currently under discussion.
- Weber's later years (2009-11). Two tournaments, one bubble team. Deemed "acceptable" (but barely) by the powers that were.
- Bill Self's tenure (2002-04). Top 4 seed every year. What we might consider "the ideal".
- John Groce's last 3 years (2015-17). No tourney or even true bubble hopes. What we might consider "the worst".

Underwood - 69%
Weber - 62.5%
Self - 76%
Groce - 53%

Graphically, it's pretty clear that in the grand scheme of recent Illini hoops teams, Underwood is neither late-years Weber nor Self.

View attachment 24464
Excellent. The question for us BU diehards, is what direction is his program headed. I am concerned that his program may have flatlined.
 
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