Fans have very little, if anything to do with it. A coach is not the hot seat due to his W/L record.
John Groce at Illinois
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Fans have very little, if anything to do with it. A coach is not the hot seat due to his W/L record.
That's a symptom, not a cause.
I'll add my two cents:
Fans on message boards have very little to nothing to do with recruiting influence. If we did, our team would consist of DJax, Brunson AND Evans.
yes, I inow they are all point guards, which illustrates the absurdity I am trying to make.
Regarding if Groce is here next year, I sincerely hope the new AD does not let him go without a replacement firmly in place. As an earlier poster stated, yes I am aware of the hiring process requirements.
Regarding the Groce years, I am not sold on his coaching ability. While I agree guard play is extremely important in the NCAA, I am in general not in favor of structuring your offense around three point shooting. IMHO, that should be a part of it, even a very important part of it, but not THE OFFENSE. It frustrated me with the previous coach, it frustrates me with this coach. It can be a great equalizer. Unfortunately, that equalization can work both ways if you catch my drift.
For stability purpose, I truly hope he gets it turned around and is here a loooong time. However, due to the timing of everything, I don't think we can base it on the 2017 recruiting class, unless he miraculously gets several early commits.
We all know those odds are very low, so the new ad is stuck in a dilemna. He or she cannot realistically extend him, but can Groce be let go? To refer back to my earlier point, don't let him go unless a replacement is securely in place.
I guess that new ad will earn his/her paycheck rather quickly wrt to both head coaching positions and the evaluation of the Groce years.
Fans on message boards have very little to nothing to do with recruiting influence. If we did, our team would consist of DJax, Brunson AND Evans.
yes, I inow they are all point guards, which illustrates the absurdity I am trying to make.Regarding if Groce is here next year, I sincerely hope the new AD does not let him go without a replacement firmly in place. As an earlier poster stated, yes I am aware of the hiring process requirements.
Regarding the Groce years, I am not sold on his coaching ability. While I agree guard play is extremely important in the NCAA, I am in general not in favor of structuring your offense around three point shooting. IMHO, that should be a part of it, even a very important part of it, but not THE OFFENSE. It frustrated me with the previous coach, it frustrates me with this coach. It can be a great equalizer. Unfortunately, that equalization can work both ways if you catch my drift.
For stability purpose, I truly hope he gets it turned around and is here a loooong time. However, due to the timing of everything, I don't think we can base it on the 2017 recruiting class, unless he miraculously gets several early commits.
We all know those odds are very low, so the new ad is stuck in a dilemna. He or she cannot realistically extend him, but can Groce be let go? To refer back to my earlier point, don't let him go unless a replacement is securely in place.
I guess that new ad will earn his/her paycheck rather quickly wrt to both head coaching positions and the evaluation of the Groce years.
FeelYourPaign
- So Cal
Honest question. Why do a great many people say that we run a PG friendly offense? I don't see it. We don't drive the lane, we don't have 2-3 guys moving at the same time, we pass it around the outside and take a three.
I suspect that we are willing to run a PG friendly offense and that JG might even aspire to it. But I certainly don't see it. I suppose that is some evidence that he adjusts his offense to reflect the players available, but its hard to take that as good news. I'm sure that a lot of us wish we ran a PG friendly offense, but it is my view that we don't. If someone who disagrees would educate me, I would be grateful.
With JT at the 1, JG has adapted the offense to run more through our wings. When TA was at PG, we ran a pure form of the dribble drive motion O. It's predicated on heavy use of ball screens, spreading the floor with shooters and creating lots of space for the 1 to take his man off the dribble and either drive and finish, dish or kick out to shooters. That's the offense JG ran at Ohio (with wrinkles, of course) and early in his tenure at UI. We still run some of it but less so now since we don't have that type of PG on the roster. We rely more on movement away from the ball and filtering sets through KN and MH now.
FeelYourPaign
- So Cal
Thanks.
I'll be the first to admit I saw PG potential in JCL and thought he was going to be the answer there. I saw him play the 1 in the Jordan Brand Classic and heard him mention Groce was trying him out at the 1 quite a bit in practice. I really thought he was going to be the answer, and I get the feeling the staff had high hopes for this as well. The good news is JCL has lived up to the hype in a lot of ways. He's going to be a good.
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He's been way too 1 dimensional, but that may be a symptom of missing preseason time. He has all the tools to be a stud, but we have to see more flashes of it (besides the 3 pters) going forward.
No time to get into a heavy discussion of offensive theory but the offense ran at OHIO always started with the pass to the wing or a high ball screen. It , in no way, resembled Vince Walberg's dribble drive any more than it resembled a Flex or any other offense. It is based mostly on a pro style screen and roll with ball movement east to west and reversal. Google it and get familiar with the actual dribble drive, principles and variations with penetration and throwing back out with .
Groce's offense does rely on the primary guard as the engine but it runs through the wings and uses screens and passing (with very little dribbling) with ball reversal and reads off the defender to run through the progressions. Continuity, once the options are exhausted relies on a seamless transition once the PG gets the ball back into the next screen/wing/sets. A scoring PG threat is when this offense works best otherwise the wings get overplayed and locked down.
Tevo
- Wilmette, IL
But the absolute best way for a coach to be loved by fans is to WIN games. Absent actual wins, show your team is moving the right direction with player development and recruiting. Nobody is "counting the days" until Groce gets fired. Nobody is excited by the prospect of starting over -- we all know what that does to recruiting. Seriously, we all REALLY want Groce to do well. I've never heard ANYone say they don't like Groce, or are even lukewarm on him as a person. There is no "bashing" of the guy. But the only way to even give him more time is to accept that injuries have played a surprisingly HUGE role in the teams fortunes over the past couple seasons. Some are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, others less so.
In my opinion a recruit will care a lot more about the results a coach gets, with his team and with individual players, than he will about how the fans feel about him.
And I think Groce would agree with all of this. He says "Players play players", which I think means the players determine who plays by how they play/practice. Well, Groce determines how long he coaches by how well he coaches and how well he recruits. The fans are a very very small part of that decision.
Sleepy Floyd
Kicking it with Fat Lever
- Champaign
Would love a heavy discussion of offensive theory if you ever get the time.
I think people make a little too much on statements like "Player A fits Groce's (or any other coach's) system." I see too many posts, for example, that Groce likes his bigs to play outside etc. Truth is that is the players he was able to get, so that is because of necessity. When he was able to get Thorne, we had for the first time, as little as it lasted, something that represented an inside game.
Same at PGs, you get a talent like Brunson, Snider, DJax. etc., I bet they would fit Groce's "system" fine. As they would fit hundreds of other "systems." You get Tilmon, sure he would fit Groce's system great, as would Williams even though he is not a prototypical PG at this stage
Same at PGs, you get a talent like Brunson, Snider, DJax. etc., I bet they would fit Groce's "system" fine. As they would fit hundreds of other "systems." You get Tilmon, sure he would fit Groce's system great, as would Williams even though he is not a prototypical PG at this stage
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I think people make a little too much on statements like "Player A fits Groce's (or any other coach's) system." I see too many posts, for example, that Groce likes his bigs to play outside etc. Truth is that is the players he was able to get, so that is because of necessity. When he was able to get Thorne, we had for the first time, as little as it lasted, something that represented an inside game.
Same at PGs, you get a talent like Brunson, Snider, DJax. etc., I bet they would fit Groce's "system" fine. As they would fit hundreds of other "systems." You get Tilmon, sure he would fit Groce's system great, as would Williams even though he is not a prototypical PG at this stage
I think you're probably right, wrt players fitting a variety of systems.
Problem is JG hasn't been able 'to get' the talent level of players that he needs to succeed.
Without a high-level PG and a BIG, he just has a bunch of wings, running around popping 3's...
That won't produce enough wins to make the tourney consistently, and that's the problem. Without wins (tourney wins) he won't be able to keep his job - and every talented 17 year old and his family knows this....
Nice explanation, but is really makes you wonder what the heck Starks was doing most of the time last year.
Count me in the group that does not want to see him at the 1. I would rather he spend his time developing some driving ability off the wing to go with his already mean spot up shooting ability. We will have three guys next year more suited for the 1 spot. Yeah, I know we are crowded at the 2-3 but that crowd means one thing we don't have now..depth!
It may have relied very little on dribbling at OU, but most seasons at UI it's been heavy on dribbling, iso play and especially ball screens, especially the first 3 years. Perhaps it was because of unbalanced lineups or the inability of our PGs to break down their defenders, but NE alone probably set a thousand high ball screens in the last 3 years at UI, and in the numerous games I've seen he and other bigs set anywhere from 1 to 3 ball screens per halfcourt possession. We still set a lot of ball screens this season, but it's been refreshing to see less reliance on them, particularly since KN's return from injury.
Agree. I like seeing less iso or "hero" ball especially since we do not have dominant talent. I was at the games in FL and we were much more dangerous with our full squad as expected and were consistently trying to get the ball inside to Thorne. What I have missed seeing the last few years under Groce is our team identifying certain situations and capitalizing with easy buckets. When you watch a team throughout a season there becomes situations where you know if a defense does certain things we will make them pay or counter with a very good opportunity. I have not witnessed this and wonder if it is the offense, how it is taught or the players/coaches not savvy enough to recognize. Thoughts?
I'm not sure what you mean by this. In Weber's 4th season, he won 23 games, finished in the top half of the conference, and went to the NCAAT. Not a banner year, but a pretty decent season. His fifth year wasn't good, though.
I read it as Groce currently having the type of roster Weber had at the end of his time here.
Can't run it if you don't have it imho
We had Brandon Paul and Ray Rice...both better at driving than passing.
Malcolm and Kendrick are both really good passers, which is maybe why we're seeing more of that this year.
Probably not the whole story, but IMO that's part of the reason we've seen a difference this year. I've really enjoyed the ball movement this year, actually. We have Tate, Hill, Nunn, and Finke who are all good passers.
Being bad.
Until such time as Illini Admin. is willing to pony up some major $$ for a premier coach that attracts premier players, we are what we are..Mid-Major coaches don't attract those type of player. If they're lucky they occasionally gets some talent and put a decent team together but not consistantly. I'm 62 y.o. and have been a fan for a number of years. I've always hoped this program would develope into a consistant top 25..Seems there's always some kind of an excuse every year..You can't buy winning players but you can buy winning coaches that players want to play for.Someone once told me.p " if you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got"..Well here we are..
I'm just gonna be optimistic about this one again and I'm gonna say John Groce is gonna be here for the next several years maybe more. I believe Groce is a great coach offensively and defensively. No one gives him enough credit and its ridiculous. Year one he over exceeded expeditions and lead that team to the tournament. At that point everyone was in love with him and had high expectations. In year two and three he failed on some top recruits and lost some games we wish we didn't. We fell a few games short but utimately Groce is the man. With all the injuries he dealed with he should be given time. I'm saying right now if everyone is healthy including Abrams this team is top 25. I think it's crazy to fire this guy. I have a feeling too this years team can turn it around and make things interesting. I love Groce and the way he coaches. He could be at Illinois a long time if he turns this thing around. Im an Illini for life and want what's best for this program. We have to give Groce more time and then judge him. Let's go Illini!! Lets finish this year strong, and give Groce sometime. I was talking to a friend about it today and he doesn't believe in this team, but I do and hope Groce and the Illini can prove some people wrong.
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