John Groce at Illinois

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#2,052      
Foggy Notion
westvilleillini said:
Serious question, so I apologize if there are any obvious answers out there that I'm missing. But has there ever been a case of a college basketball coach on the "hot seat" who recovers to have long term sustained success?
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Dean Smith:

Jan. 7, 1965: As the team bus pulls up in front of Woollen Gym, Dean Smith and his 6-6 team see about 100 students across the street. Other students are leaning out of their windows. In front of the gym, a dummy is hanging from a noose. "Look, they're hanging you in effigy," says assistant coach Ken Rosemond to Smith. The fourth-year coach stares straight ahead, not displaying any emotion. "I could tell it was me because of its long nose," Smith will write later.
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http://espn.go.com/classic/s/moment0107smithhungineffigy.html
 
#2,053      
StateFarmCenter
News Gazette with the attendance hit piece. Took forever for someone to mention it. It's been the elephant in the room since we dumped 200 million or whatever into my namesake. Have to guess we're at 30 year lows and that's sad.
 
#2,056      
freebird6
geneseo said:
I didn't say "creaning". I said "for whatever reason"... meaning it includes, creaning transfers, disciplinary transfers, double disciplinary transfers, incoming transfers, outgoing transfers, fifth year transfers... the roster is like a revolving door.

Just in the last twelve months + 3 days... Cosby, Colbert and Paul have been shown the door. Paul for the second time. Cosby and Paul were also transfers in (again Paul twice).

I don't think this revolving door is good for the team or the individual student/athlete.
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FWIW historically Groce has tried to build rosters with 4 year players and develope them. I do not think he likes the revolving door either....whether for discipline or any other reason. His OHIO teams were built on 4 year commits and great support systems with parents and family. I think his time here is pretty aberrant and out of character as I review his targets clear back to his time as a recruiter at X and tO$U
 
#2,057      
pnorber2
The lines indicate approx. records required to reach a Bowl Game or the NCAA tournament.
Illini Sports.PNG
 
#2,058      
Greensboro
Second and Chalmers said:
Three? Seven players have left Illinois before their eligibility had expired so far under Groce, eight if you count both Paul incidents, nine if you count LaTulip, and could be ten with Black.

Then there's also the three graduate transfers who were one-and-dones by definition, four if you count Starks.

That's a lot of short-term stays in a four year period.
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Absolutely, but aren't you mixing your arguments. Shaw, Ibby, & Langford we should have kept, that helps the team any year, let alone this year. Throw in Colbert, with are lack of bigs he may look ok this year, but outside of the injury disaster this year I don't think he helps.

Second and Chalmers said:
The facts are that of the 10 transfers Groce has brought into the program in his four years, their current combined contribution to this season's team is literally below zero, apologies to Khalid Lewis who is trying his best. There's an unlucky injury that contributes to that, sure, but 10 transfers for one Mike Thorne isn't a great tradeoff either way.
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But of those 4 replaced Ibby, Shaw, Henry, Langford who wouldn't be around either, Rice graduated, Ekey, Starks, McLaurin were 5th yr transfers that were to replace holes. We take Lewis every time after losing Tracy & the only way we don't take Thorne is in hindsight, you sign him for next year in a heartbeat if given the choice. I just don't think comparing 5th year to taking freshman is the right comparison, getting a quality kid late in the spring just doesn't happen at Illinois that you count on it, & if one was available we still could have taken them.
 
#2,059      
geneseo
Greensboro said:
Absolutely, but aren't you mixing your arguments. Shaw, Ibby, & Langford we should have kept, that helps the team any year, let alone this year. Throw in Colbert, with are lack of bigs he may look ok this year, but outside of the injury disaster this year I don't think he helps.



But of those 4 replaced Ibby, Shaw, Henry, Langford who wouldn't be around either, Rice graduated, Ekey, Starks, McLaurin were 5th yr transfers that were to replace holes. We take Lewis every time after losing Tracy & the only way we don't take Thorne is in hindsight, you sign him for next year in a heartbeat if given the choice. I just don't think comparing 5th year to taking freshman is the right comparison, getting a quality kid late in the spring just doesn't happen at Illinois that you count on it, & if one was available we still could have taken them.
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Starks had to sit out a year and used two scholarship-years for one year of playing, not the typical 5th yr transfer. Another thing to consider is that players develop, that is, they should develop under a good coach given enough time. 5th years seem to be given a pass in this discussion but a year of developing a recruit is lost. In the case of Starks, didn't go according to plan, I know, but still two years of development lost. Who knows where we'd be had we gone the recruit route rather than the transfer route?
 
#2,060      
Greensboro
TCTORNADO said:
You recollect the MH situation perfectly, he was "creamed." to make room for DP.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Paul technically use up 3 years of ships. The 1 year he was on campus sitting out the transfer, a 2nd year that we sort of held open for his return from TX (we may have gotten a 5th yr in place of that) and finally when he wigged out in France in August, it was too late to get anybody of value(maybe we got Lewis).
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I don't know what was happening behind the scenes, but there were rumors on this board and people saying Groce wanted him back, but Henry was being told he should be playing the 3. Groce's quotes at the time lead me to believe that Henry was taking his time deciding. Here is the speculation thread when he wasn't at the banquet.

http://www.illinoisloyalty.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=19898&highlight=mike+Henry

Here is a Tupper article with rumors floating around prior to announcement.
http://herald-review.com/sports/illini/tupper-changes-needed-in-transfer-market/article_8d57f792-c041-11e2-880b-001a4bcf887a.html

I'm not convinced this was a true creaning. I think Groce may have gotten tired of waiting on him to decide, but with only Egwu, Ekey, and freshman Mav & Colbert it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to push him out. I think Starks doesn't come on board and indeed as I recall they held off on announcing Starks as official until Henry was officiallly transferring.
 
#2,061      
Greensboro
geneseo said:
Starks had to sit out a year and used two scholarship-years for one year of playing, not the typical 5th yr transfer. Another thing to consider is that players develop, that is, they should develop under a good coach given enough time. 5th years seem to be given a pass in this discussion but a year of developing a recruit is lost. In the case of Starks, didn't go according to plan, I know, but still two years of development lost. Who knows where we'd be had we gone the recruit route rather than the transfer route?
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Your correct, but I think the intent was he was going to get an exemption and play 1 yr; the 2nd year was unplanned. But realistically I don't think we had anyone in the pipeline that late to take the scholarship if it would have only been one year. The second year we would have certainly tried to fill the scholarship.
 
#2,062      
Deleted member 19448
At this pint I have virtually zero thought that this staff will be able to land a game changing 17 class. Seems a pipe dream. It is clear to me that groce is not the guy to restore this program. It is time to make a change sooner rather than later
 
#2,063      
Poe's Law
StateFarmCenter said:
News Gazette with the attendance hit piece. Took forever for someone to mention it. It's been the elephant in the room since we dumped 200 million or whatever into my namesake. Have to guess we're at 30 year lows and that's sad.
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Anybody else wonder if it's the start of Whitman building a narrative for a change ahead of a change?
 
#2,065      
Poe's Law
PerennIaLL said:
We can only hope. Letting Groce stay around scares the hell out of me. Just another wasted year.
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Trying to calm back down after that second half, but in this moment giving another year to groce feels like "investing" all my retirement money in powerball tickets.
 
#2,066      
FeelYourPaign
PerennIaLL said:
We can only hope. Letting Groce stay around scares the hell out of me. Just another wasted year.
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I understand the sentiment. But do you think that JW is already prepped and ready to hire a superior replacement? Not saying he isn't, just pointing out that any replacement commits us for another 3-4 years, while retaining JG commits us for 1 year. It is the practical implication of having waiting until mid-Feb to replace MT.
 
#2,067      
PerennIaLL
FeelYourPaign said:
I understand the sentiment. But do you think that JW is already prepped and ready to hire a superior replacement? Not saying he isn't, just pointing out that any replacement commits us for another 3-4 years, while retaining JG commits us for 1 year. It is the practical implication of having waiting until mid-Feb to replace MT.
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I hear you. Part of me says we just can't accept what we have regardless of the AD circumstances and timing. There is risk in any action or inaction. Can we really do that much worse?

That's what we're paying Whitman to figure out. He may go one more year with Groce just so he does not have to make a quick hire. I just think it will be another wasted year, but maybe it will be worth it if the new hire is that much better for waiting a year.
 
#2,069      
FeelYourPaign
StateFarmCenter said:
As long as we have the money, there is absolutely no benefit to waiting.
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I just don't think it is that clear. That is such a black & white statement and I'm not sure that a great coach with a lot options is going to sign on for what might appear to be a knee jerk reaction by a new D3 athletic director who doesn't have a boss. If you're that guy, do you sign up for that deal?
 
#2,070      
icengineer
If JW can work out a behind the scenes deal with a reputable coach you make the change and not give it a second thought. If that doesn't happen you put Groce on notice, this next year is do or die. Tournament AND good recruiting class. No less. Suggest a staff shake-up, but don't make it mandatory. Make it clear that there will be no excuses next year. As AD, JW needs to insist on accountability.
 
#2,071      
thenoodler
FeelYourPaign said:
I just don't think it is that clear. That is such a black & white statement and I'm not sure that a great coach with a lot options is going to sign on for what might appear to be a knee jerk reaction by a new D3 athletic director who doesn't have a boss. If you're that guy, do you sign up for that deal?
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That's good perspective and I wouldn't expect illinois to be a player for any of the big names because of it. I do think, however, that coaches like Bryce Drew, mike lonergan, and Kevin keatts would come based on the money and power conference prestige. And for that reason, if I'm Whitman, I'm inclined to make a change
 
#2,072      
Jreed322
icengineer said:
If JW can work out a behind the scenes deal with a reputable coach you make the change and not give it a second thought. If that doesn't happen you put Groce on notice, this next year is do or die. Tournament AND good recruiting class. No less. Suggest a staff shake-up, but don't make it mandatory. Make it clear that there will be no excuses next year. As AD, JW needs to insist on accountability.
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I'm fairly certain Groce would know all this anyways.
 
#2,073      
ILLINIShox24
thenoodler said:
That's good perspective and I wouldn't expect illinois to be a player for any of the big names because of it. I do think, however, that coaches like Bryce Drew, mike lonergan, and Kevin keatts would come based on the money and power conference prestige. And for that reason, if I'm Whitman, I'm inclined to make a change
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100% agreed.
 
#2,074      
illinitiger
Big Jack said:
Probably the right way to go about this and I would be behind it 150% now, but I think JG has a stubborn side to him that won't allow changes to take place. He had the opportunity to keep Snacks when he took over but wanted his guys on staff, so I think forcing him to make changes will never happen or work.. Time to cut ties and start over in my opinion. If we suck again next year with the current staff the 17 class won't happen, better to get a new coach and roll the dice. Hate to say it but we were better off with Weber.
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17 class will largely be firmed up before next B10 season I think
 
#2,075      
illiniguy24
I definitely think we should be performing better with the guys we have on the court. But with that being said, I think even coach K would struggle with the injuries we've had this year to make this a competitive team and a run for the tourne.

But, if we would have landed some high school recruits instead of 5th year transfers we wouldn't be relying on Khalid, Alex Austin and DJ (who just isn't ready for B1G play yet) to give us the depth behind our top 3 players. I really think Nunn and Malcolm have a hard time believing in the team right now and it showed last night.
 
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