Kansas 34, Illinois 23 Postgame

Indy Illini Fan · Sep 11, 2023

Illiniguy74 said:
Is it possible we changed from a tactician to more of a cheerleader at DC? Making no accusation. Just get the feeling based on interviews I've seen with the former and current DCs. Would be interested to hear observations from insiders like Indy and 0440.

A Hen is someone I consider a friend, so this makes what I am about to say a little bit tough to say ... But he is the ultimate players coach ... And sometimes, that can get you into trouble when it comes to correcting issues ... Technique wise, disciplinary wise, etc. ... The young men either have to fear you and always comply or respect you enough to take what you are saying, listen, and apply it ... And I think most of these guys look at A Hen like their older brother rather than their coach ...

Now with that being said ... A Hen can't be the only one leading this group ... Players (captains) have GOT to step up ... Some of what has been happening is just veteran guys not being leaders IMO ... Bailey will help with this ... That kid cares just as much if not more than anyone on the team ... But 0 accountability when we commit stupid penalties from our players to their teammates ... I want our guys in their teammates face when we commit penalties ... Correct the issue man to man ... Hold each other accountable ... Syd was ELITE at this last year ... And I don't think we have a guy like that on this team ... I hope it's Bailey ...

We also have such a major talent drop off at many positions ... Now that is on recruiting ... I did not like our approach to the portal at all and I have shared that with Bret and while we have different philosophies on the portal ... I think he sees the value now in adding a couple more proven guys to play instead of taking a bunch of freshman and redshirting them and throwing them into the fire just like I see the value in having guys around the program for multiple years ...

Offensively ... We cannot continue to put so much pressure on this defense ... Our offense is better than our defense ... Last year the defense was so good that if we put pressure on them to get stops ... It just seemed like a foregone conclusion that we would get a stop ... I mean look how many of those guys are in the league ... You can afford to do that when you have that type of talent ... Those days are over ... Lunney needs to quit with the freaking trick plays (side note: feel like I am in the dang Blindside movie with how much the ole lady said "enough with the dang trick plays Barry, run the dang ball") ... But we need to do what we do ... Illinois Football ... Tough, Smart, Dependable ... A strong running team ... When it is 3rd and freaking 1, I expect that we get that 9/10 times ... We are not even close to that right now ... Outside of the first drive of the season ... I have not been overly impressed with the play calling ... That has got to improve ...

It is Monday afternoon and I am still frustrated from Friday over an Illinois Football game ... Years ago I would have forgot about the game the same day ... So I guess in a way ... This is progress ... Let's see what the coaches can dial up for Saturday ... I-L-L ... :illinois:

blackdog · Sep 11, 2023

mhuml32 said:
This is a statistical comment, with plenty of caveats about how this coaching staff is known for developing offensive line talent.

I've seen a handful of posts about the answer being "just move Crisler back inside", so this isn't meant as picking at a specific one but just quoting the most recent: why do we think moving Crisler back inside is going to be the answer? His pass blocking grade is so low that I struggle to understand how moving him back inside is a good strategy for Illinois. He could quadruple his blocking grade based on his past experience, easier help, etc. and it would still be atrocious. Plus, whoever gets moved to RT is going to need help because of their inexperience. I'm a believer that the loss of reps from the offseason + recent injuries have really sapped his effectiveness. I would rather have a offensive line group of Pearl - Adams - Kreutz - Slaughter - Henderson or Whitenack.

The problem for him is the position, playing tackle is a whole different set of skills and technique compared to playing inside at guard. He just doesn't have the ability to play one on one on the outside. Its pretty reasonable to expect a big jump in his grades if he were to shift back inside to his natural position.

aaeismacgychel · Sep 11, 2023

mhuml32 said:
This is a statistical comment, with plenty of caveats about how this coaching staff is known for developing offensive line talent.

I've seen a handful of posts about the answer being "just move Crisler back inside", so this isn't meant as picking at a specific one but just quoting the most recent: why do we think moving Crisler back inside is going to be the answer? His pass blocking grade is so low that I struggle to understand how moving him back inside is a good strategy for Illinois. He could quadruple his blocking grade based on his past experience, easier help, etc. and it would still be atrocious. Plus, whoever gets moved to RT is going to need help because of their inexperience. I'm a believer that the loss of reps from the offseason + recent injuries have really sapped his effectiveness. I would rather have a offensive line group of Pearl - Adams - Kreutz - Slaughter - Henderson or Whitenack.

I think that without more data this year, it comes down to how optimistic or not you are on Zy as a football player. The optimistic ones will say he graded out much better as a guard last year, and he looks completely uncomfortable at tackle. The pessimists will say his injury has rendered him completely ineffective and no longer able to play football.

What we know is that his pass blocking is so low because he is getting absolutely torched by speed rushers who are running or spinning around him. Adding to that is that both his positioning and jump at tackle has been atrocious and glacial. Not a good combo.

The reason I'm leaning more optimistically is that there is a lot less room for a DT to maneuver than a DE making it tougher to just run around you, and similarly, DTs at the college level tend to rely more on power moves than finesse or speed. As such, for me, I'd at least try him back at his more natural position of guard and see if he performs a lot better. If not, then yeah, it's time to sit him down, but my gut feeling is he'll look a lot better when not on an island against speed rusher DEs.

One other thing- I'm pretty surprised based on his performance that Lunney didn't give Zy more help by getting a TE to regularly chip. Seemed like a Nagy type decision when facing Myles Garrett not to do that.

Illiniam1984 · Sep 11, 2023

We can’t let Jim Leonhard get away. I would like to see him wearing the headset again but on our sideline.

mhuml32 · Sep 11, 2023

Indy Illini Fan said:
But he is the ultimate players coach ... And sometimes, that can get you into trouble when it comes to correcting issues ... Technique wise, disciplinary wise, etc. ... The young men either have to fear you and always comply or respect you enough to take what you are saying, listen, and apply it ... And I think most of these guys look at A Hen like their older brother rather than their coach ...

There are no coaching approaches that are lacking in drawbacks. The early tenures of Pete Carroll at USC, Dabo Swinney at Clemson, Fleck at Western Michigan, Bobby Bowden at Florida State, Andy Reid, and countless others who were successful being very pro-player. In fact, some of these coaches are extremely pro-player, like Carroll.

Respect is earned. It's not like the above coaches were hard-asses until they got the respect and morphed into player-friendly coaches. You can both be player friendly and still be good at your job. Not everyone is Belichick or Saban.

mhuml32 · Sep 11, 2023

blackdog said:
The problem for him is the position, playing tackle is a whole different set of skills and technique compared to playing inside at guard. He just doesn't have the ability to play one on one on the outside. Its pretty reasonable to expect a big jump in his grades if he were to shift back inside to his natural position.

This is ignoring the injuries and lack of reps this fall.

aaeismacgychel said:
I think that without more data this year, it comes down to how optimistic or not you are on Zy as a football player. The optimistic ones will say he graded out much better as a guard last year, and he looks completely uncomfortable at tackle. The pessimists will say his injury has rendered him completely ineffective and no longer able to play football.

What we know is that his pass blocking is so low because he is getting absolutely torched by speed rushers who are running or spinning around him. Adding to that is that both his positioning and jump at tackle has been atrocious and glacial. Not a good combo.

The reason I'm leaning more optimistically is that there is a lot less room for a DT to maneuver than a DE making it tougher to just run around you, and similarly, DTs at the college level tend to rely more on power moves than finesse or speed. As such, for me, I'd at least try him back at his more natural position of guard and see if he performs a lot better. If not, then yeah, it's time to sit him down, but my gut feeling is he'll look a lot better when not on an island against speed rusher DEs.

One other thing- I'm pretty surprised based on his performance that Lunney didn't give Zy more help by getting a TE to regularly chip. Seemed like a Nagy type decision when facing Myles Garrett not to do that.

This is fair, a couple comments. The last comment doesn't line up with the statistics, as Reiman has quite a few passing blocking reps via PFF. It doesn't break down on who he's helping, but there's enough to quell any concerns about the lack of support.

For the first paragraph, I don't think you have to be in the absolutes. I believe the injuries ruined any reps he had for preparing for the season. He isn't a lost cause, but it certainly looks like he needs more seasoning to be ready to effectively for this season (or even next season). But yes, it's a farther leap for me to think that an all-conference guard becomes THE worst starting right tackle in the country without injury and lack of rep concerns.

Nikethreadguysm · Sep 11, 2023

Indy Illini Fan said:
A Hen is someone I consider a friend, so this makes what I am about to say a little bit tough to say ... But he is the ultimate players coach ... And sometimes, that can get you into trouble when it comes to correcting issues ... Technique wise, disciplinary wise, etc. ... The young men either have to fear you and always comply or respect you enough to take what you are saying, listen, and apply it ... And I think most of these guys look at A Hen like their older brother rather than their coach ...

Now with that being said ... A Hen can't be the only one leading this group ... Players (captains) have GOT to step up ... Some of what has been happening is just veteran guys not being leaders IMO ... Bailey will help with this ... That kid cares just as much if not more than anyone on the team ... But 0 accountability when we commit stupid penalties from our players to their teammates ... I want our guys in their teammates face when we commit penalties ... Correct the issue man to man ... Hold each other accountable ... Syd was ELITE at this last year ... And I don't think we have a guy like that on this team ... I hope it's Bailey ...

We also have such a major talent drop off at many positions ... Now that is on recruiting ... I did not like our approach to the portal at all and I have shared that with Bret and while we have different philosophies on the portal ... I think he sees the value now in adding a couple more proven guys to play instead of taking a bunch of freshman and redshirting them and throwing them into the fire just like I see the value in having guys around the program for multiple years ...

Offensively ... We cannot continue to put so much pressure on this defense ... Our offense is better than our defense ... Last year the defense was so good that if we put pressure on them to get stops ... It just seemed like a foregone conclusion that we would get a stop ... I mean look how many of those guys are in the league ... You can afford to do that when you have that type of talent ... Those days are over ... Lunney needs to quit with the freaking trick plays (side note: feel like I am in the dang Blindside movie with how much the ole lady said "enough with the dang trick plays Barry, run the dang ball") ... But we need to do what we do ... Illinois Football ... Tough, Smart, Dependable ... A strong running team ... When it is 3rd and freaking 1, I expect that we get that 9/10 times ... We are not even close to that right now ... Outside of the first drive of the season ... I have not been overly impressed with the play calling ... That has got to improve ...

It is Monday afternoon and I am still frustrated from Friday over an Illinois Football game ... Years ago I would have forgot about the game the same day ... So I guess in a way ... This is progress ... Let's see what the coaches can dial up for Saturday ... I-L-L ...

Maybe it’s different for you, but from my perspective the frustration comes from thinking that this time it really *was* progress and instead it’s feeling like the football is being pulled away yet again. I trumpeted all off-season that success of this season hinged on how good Altmyer could be. Turns out he’s the only bright spot. As a fan I feel the momentum dissipating on this program - is the next level of recruit sold on this? How could they be?

TheDrinkinLincoln · Sep 11, 2023

mhuml32 said:
This is a statistical comment, with plenty of caveats about how this coaching staff is known for developing offensive line talent.

I've seen a handful of posts about the answer being "just move Crisler back inside", so this isn't meant as picking at a specific one but just quoting the most recent: why do we think moving Crisler back inside is going to be the answer? His pass blocking grade is so low that I struggle to understand how moving him back inside is a good strategy for Illinois. He could quadruple his blocking grade based on his past experience, easier help, etc. and it would still be atrocious. Plus, whoever gets moved to RT is going to need help because of their inexperience. I'm a believer that the loss of reps from the offseason + recent injuries have really sapped his effectiveness. I would rather have a offensive line group of Pearl - Adams - Kreutz - Slaughter - Henderson or Whitenack.

Maybe this has been answered, but for Zy he has been getting destroyed on spin and speed rushes from the RT spot. Which is typically symptomatic of him not being light enough on his feet and the his kick-step needs some work.

In Toledo 56 set him up good by speed rushing the outside for the majority of the 1st Q and then once Crisler got over committed kicking too far back on the snap 56 was using a nice spin move to cut inside and blast LA.

Kansas then took this and did the same thing but their End wasn't as good as the swim move. So they set him up with the speed rush and then switch to an E-T stunt where he was kicking back hard to try and beat the speed rush but didn't have his weight under him trying to make that kick and the End just bull rushed him in while either the T or the OLB looped around and had unabated access to LA. I saw Lunney move Tip over to help the RT but it honestly didn't help that much.

If we moved Crisler back to RG it basically eliminates what he is struggling with he can sink his weight more because of they try and speed rush around him the rusher will run in to the tackle or their teammate. Zy is definitely a good enough athlete but just seems to be in his head and and getting away from his power base or "sand" if you will which is leading him to get beat fairly easily. Needs to keep his feet and Center of Gravity under himself and work on his kick slide if he is going to stay at RT.

mhuml32 · Sep 11, 2023

TheDrinkinLincoln said:
Maybe this has been answered, but for Zy he has been getting destroyed on spin and speed rushes from the RT spot. Which is typically symptomatic of him not being light enough on his feet and the his kick-step needs some work.

In Toledo 56 set him up good by speed rushing the outside for the majority of the 1st Q and then once Crisler got over committed kicking too far back on the snap 56 was using a nice spin move to cut inside and blast LA.

Kansas then took this and did the same thing but their End wasn't as good as the swim move. So they set him up with the speed rush and then switch to an E-T stunt where he was kicking back hard to try and beat the speed rush but didn't have his weight under him trying to make that kick and the End just bull rushed him in while either the T or the OLB looped around and had unabated access to LA. I saw Lunney move Tip over to help the RT but it honestly didn't help that much.

If we moved Crisler back to RG it basically eliminates what he is struggling with he can sink his weight more because of they try and speed rush around him the rusher will run in to the tackle or their teammate. Zy is definitely a good enough athlete but just seems to be in his head and and getting away from his power base or "sand" if you will which is leading him to get beat fairly easily. Needs to keep his feet and Center of Gravity under himself and work on his kick slide if he is going to stay at RT.

Excellent points, and best hope the team can hope for if they move him back inside.

illinistephen · Sep 11, 2023

Indy Illini Fan said:
We also have such a major talent drop off at many positions ... Now that is on recruiting ... I did not like our approach to the portal at all and I have shared that with Bret and while we have different philosophies on the portal ... I think he sees the value now in adding a couple more proven guys to play instead of taking a bunch of freshman and redshirting them and throwing them into the fire just like I see the value in having guys around the program for multiple years ...

IMO there is no reason with the transfer portal that there isn't always a competent two deep at each position with 44 scholarships. If you want the remaining scholarships to be developing underclassmen then so be it. The coaching staff has to be able to self scout and be experienced enough to admit what players or position groups aren't a good enough caliber for big ten, winning football.