New Mexico State 74, Illinois 69 POSTGAME

#101      

jrichisamazing

J
jrichisamazing
Obelix said:
People slowly come to realization that our frontcourt is very thin and lacks talent. Our low-post game, around the basket, and game in the paint is almost non-existent. We simply do not have the players/skills in that area. I know, I know... potisionless this and positionless that, 1-5 are interachangeable, etc. etc.

What we noticed today was that we really have one player, Black, right now who really has the skillset combined with some size around the basket. And Black really played out of his mind in the second half. He had a tremendous game in the second half, way above what we should expect from him every game, and he was really the main reason we got back in the game. Without Black playing an incredible game, it would not have been close. JMO.

Underwood is a good coach IMO but we lack the horses in the frontcourt, much of his success will depend on recruiting. We need some immediate help (besides Ayo) in the frontcourt this recruiting class and obviously play for all marbles with the '19 top frontcourt players (i.e., Liddell, Okoro, etc.).

On the positive side, kudos again to Leron Black in the second half, and I also liked the combination of TJL and Frazier in the same lineup at the end, something we had seen less of previously (they usually come in for each other).

As I've said in the past, if satisfaction is just solely based on making the tournament, some people may get disappointed. Personally, I still enjoy watching this team develop, it is fun competitive basketball regardless of making the tournament this year. The young players will get better and better as the season progresses. I would also like to see a little more playing time for Ebo, despite not being ready.
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So let's say BU has this same exact squad, but this is his 2nd or 3rd year here. Basically we still have the same freshmen, but the upperclassmen know the system and are comfortable running it and teaching it to the younger guys. Do you think we make the tournament?

For me it's an easy yes. BU said it after one of the games earlier this year. Something along the lines of "This team doesn't have the talent to beat someone straight up. They need to trust the system and let the system do the work." Yes, we need more talent. But I think it's enough talent that a good coach can work around the holes and play toward our strengths.
 
#102      

illinitiger

I
illinitiger
EJ33 said:
Yeah, and the people with the fantasyland predictions are now ready to jump out the window. Same thing happened in football this year.

I'm disappointed we blew it in a couple games, but also encouraged by the fact that we've actually made the games close. I don't care about being a bubble team this year. I care about being a threat to make the Final Four in 4-5 years.
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Id rather be competitive in all games than jekyl and hide like in the past. we have to figure out how to win close games at the end though....0 for 5 sucks.
 
#103      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
jrichisamazing said:
So let's say BU has this same exact squad, but this is his 2nd or 3rd year here. Basically we still have the same freshmen, but the upperclassmen know the system and are comfortable running it and teaching it to the younger guys. Do you think we make the tournament?

For me it's an easy yes.
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Time is not the only factor there.
 
#104      

MC06

M
MC06
We’ve been mentally soft for so long. I hoped underwood would change that and he still may. But we continue to make so many mental mistakes that cost us close games.
 
#105      

illinibballfan

I
illinibballfan
Going to say it again. We need a graduate transfer big. Finke and Black would be one of the nation's best rotations at the 4 spot. Unfortunately, we don't have anybody to rotation at the 5, so they have to split off and play there and makes us one of the weakest rotations at the 4 due to lack of depth. If Underwood needs to sightly adjust his style for a year to upgrade the post talent then so be it.
 
#106      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
jrichisamazing said:
So let's say BU has this same exact squad, but this is his 2nd or 3rd year here. Basically we still have the same freshmen, but the upperclassmen know the system and are comfortable running it and teaching it to the younger guys. Do you think we make the tournament?
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Well, we are adding Ayo (who is a talent) and the some of the young players (i.e., Smith, Trent, Damonte, TJL) will definitely get better. So we will be better, but that is not the point. Unless we improve the frontcourt and overall talent there, the bar will continue to stay at just making the tournament (whether we make it or not).

To take then next step and move the bar higher, where you consistently make the tournament without having to sweat it and compete with the upper echelon teams in the B1G, you have to improve the overall talent from the last 12 years (with the exception of 2010-11) and leave no real positional gaps in recruiting.
 
#107      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
Obelix said:
Well, we are adding Ayo (who is a talent) and the some of the young players (i.e., Smith, Trent, Damonte, TJL) will definitely get better. So we will be better, but that is not the point. Unless we improve the frontcourt and overall talent there, the bar will continue to stay at just making the tournament (whether we make it or not).

To take then next step and move the bar higher, where you consistently make the tournament without having to sweat it and compete with the upper echelon teams in the B1G, you have to improve the overall talent from the last 12 years (with the exception of 2010-11) and leave no real positional gaps in recruiting.
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Believe it or not, you also have to play good basketball in basketball games.
 
#108      

alexander58

A
alexander58
Big improvement on playing defense without fouling. The Illini played well overall. They need to be better late in close games. Lorton was the difference.
 
#111      

idoc13

I
idoc13
aluma said:
I don't mean to bash on Finke, but man is he slow and a soft. He is the epitome of what I got use to under Groce. Ironically, he is now the result of recruiting misses as he really should be a 7 or 8th guy in a lineup and should only play the stretch 4. Unfortunately, we haven't recruited post players in the past and he has to play more than he should and out of position.
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Exactly. Tough to defend when you’ve got a stretch 4 role player as your rim protector. Add to that Leron (who did a great job tonight and has been very good all season) he is undersized.

We have no front court depth. If Finke or Leron get in foul trouble.. yikes.. who else do we have?

That Isaac Haas kid from Purdue is going to score about 70 against us.
 
#112      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
illinibballfan said:
If Underwood needs to sightly adjust his style for a year to upgrade the post talent then so be it.
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Not sure I understand your post, how do you upgrade the post talent by adjusting the style for a year? The only way you will upgrade the post talent is with recruiting.

I really do not think there is anything wrong with Underwood's system, I actually really like it. We simply do not have the horses/talent, especially in the frontcourt.

People can dream of the coach with the magic wand who will turn this team and players into B1G and national competitors until the end of time. Better grab a snickers...
 
#114      

Deleted member 4960

D
Guest
Deleted member 4960
I don't get the questioning of BU's system. Are people not watching these games? Every single game when we execute what he wants we do extremely well. Our issues are bad 1st halfs and total lack of execution and brain farts at end of games. It's on the players. Got to believe its holdover from Groce weak teams and being so young.
 
#115      

jrichisamazing

J
jrichisamazing
alexander58 said:
Big improvement on playing defense without fouling. The Illini played well overall. They need to be better late in close games. Lorton was the difference.
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Great point on the defense without fouling. That makes 2 games in a row after the UNLV foul-fest. This team is doing good things. Just need to put it all together.
 
#116      

helppitch

H
helppitch
aluma said:
I don't mean to bash on Finke, but man is he slow and a soft. He is the epitome of what I got use to under Groce. Ironically, he is now the result of recruiting misses as he really should be a 7 or 8th guy in a lineup and should only play the stretch 4. Unfortunately, we haven't recruited post players in the past and he has to play more than he should and out of position.
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If you didn't mean to bash on Finke, what did you mean? It is always interesting to see who is going to be the player who is going to get dogged each year. Pretty much year we have one. Some years (not this one), it has even been our best player.

People should pay little attention what is on this board (it can be highly entertaining, but generally not very accurate). I remember when Finke was red shirting, some people were saying how he was tearing it up in practice.
Then he started to appear in games. Any success we have this year will depend largely on Finke. We better hope he & Black stick around for a 5th year.
 
#117      

Combo

C
Combo
Illiniaaron said:
I never understood why some fans had such high expectations for this season. This is a pretty big rebuilding project. This roster has too many guards and no size at all. I would be surprised if this team finishes above .500. This will take another couple years of recruiting to put together a roster that makes sense.
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What makes you think we're going to recruit that well? I don't think see Underwood recruiting at a high level w/o showing progress on the court. Some coaches (like Cuonzo Martin) are able to sell kids w/o on the court success. Ajo aside, I don't see Underwood as that kind of dynamic personality.

I hope I'm wrong.
 
#118      

jrichisamazing

J
jrichisamazing
Illiniaaron said:
I don't get it. Apparently you're seeing something good the rest of us aren't. Who in the conference do you think we are better than? Maybe Iowa. Wisconsin is off to a bad start but I won't believe we can beat them until it actually happens. This is maybe a six win team in conference.
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Well we've played 2 conference games thus far, and beat ourselves in both. Should already be 2-0. So I guess it's just a matter of believing that we will correct our mistakes or keep shooting ourselves in the foot all season. I can understand only seeing 5-6 wins. But it's not too hard to envision winning 9+ either.
 
#119      

illinitiger

I
illinitiger
Combo said:
What makes you think we're going to recruit that well? I don't think see Underwood recruiting at a high level w/o showing progress on the court. Some coaches (like Cuonzo Martin) are able to sell kids w/o on the court success. Ajo aside, I don't see Underwood as that kind of dynamic personality.

I hope I'm wrong.
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I'm not a fan of rating coaches based on personality....K might be one of the worst, if that were the case.

On BU ..., once the system is fully in and we have on-court success, I expect players to be attracted.

As comparison, Cuonzo has gotten talent and underperformed in past...BU has installed a system and developed successful teams with average talent. I think once we start consistently winning, talent will come to us, ala 80s....either way, I think the teacher and system coach will outlast the personality coach almost every time.
 
#120      

jrichisamazing

J
jrichisamazing
Combo said:
What makes you think we're going to recruit that well? I don't think see Underwood recruiting at a high level w/o showing progress on the court. Some coaches (like Cuonzo Martin) are able to sell kids w/o on the court success. Ajo aside, I don't see Underwood as that kind of dynamic personality.

I hope I'm wrong.
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There is a lot more that goes into recruiting than personality. But that's a discussion for the recruiting thread.
 
#121      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
illinitiger said:
I think once we start consistently winning, talent will come to us, ala 80s...
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I do not know about that statement. If we wait until we start winning consistently to get the talent, we may never consistently win to begin with. First, if you can win consistently without the talent, then you have practically proven you can do without the talent, which I do not think is possible. Second, if you wait until you consistently win, it means you might as well give up on talent like EJ Liddell, Okoro, etc. because we will definitely not prove that this year. Good recruiters always get better talent than they deserve, and similar to getting Ayo, we have to get additional talent in the frontcourt soon. Very soon, otherwise the consistent winning may never come.

Also, in the 80s, much of what got the ball rolling was recruiting. It was the recruiting of Tony Yates that led to Illinois starting to consistently win (and recruit even more with Jimmy Collins). Tony Yates was known as an ace recruiter, actually his reputation and performance as a recruiter not only helped Illinois to start winning but actually landed him the Cincinnati head coaching job in 1983.
 
#122      

sunman

sunman
sunman
tv2 said:
Absolutely agree.

Only 3 months and many seem ready to fire the coach and team?
It takes time to rid of bad habits and the college ball is totally different than high school.

I am sticking by Coach BU and the team.

Go Illini.
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:thumb:
 
#123      

Begreatallthetime23

B
Begreatallthetime23
respect BU but if you going to tell me that we keep the ball in TJL's hands during crutch times its going to be a long season.

We have lost (3) games with the balls in those players hands and nothing good has come from it........I respect they are good players in the moment but they are not game changers and he said it himself "good point guards make plays for others and themselves ...

BU is taking the blame but as much as he wants TJL to lead the defense....Juwan Evans was a NBA guard ..... neither TJL or Frazier are remotely close to being a shut down defender like Evans which is why Ok. St. won and he could run that type of D.

I would've tried Smith or Williams on Lofton to put a bigger guard against him....
 
#124      

idoc13

I
idoc13
Combo said:
What makes you think we're going to recruit that well? I don't think see Underwood recruiting at a high level w/o showing progress on the court. Some coaches (like Cuonzo Martin) are able to sell kids w/o on the court success. Ajo aside, I don't see Underwood as that kind of dynamic personality.

I hope I'm wrong.
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Underwood got Mark Smith and Ayo to commit to a school that hasn’t won in a decade. He can recruit. I have to believe he can convince a talented big guy to come. There is plenty of playing time available.