It's only a major setback if the organization doesn't do anything about it. We lost Tony LaRussa and Albert Pujols in the same offseason. That's one of the best managers and one of the best players in baseball history. We haven't missed the playoffs since. I think we'll be fine without Heyward. Honestly, the only player I'm going to be worried to see gone is Yadi. That's why I wish we would find a young catcher to learn from Yadi for a couple years. We need to find our Aaron Rodgers.
St. Louis Cardinals 2015 Season
It's only a major setback if the organization doesn't do anything about it. We lost Tony LaRussa and Albert Pujols in the same offseason. That's one of the best managers and one of the best players in baseball history. We haven't missed the playoffs since. I think we'll be fine without Heyward. Honestly, the only player I'm going to be worried to see gone is Yadi. That's why I wish we would find a young catcher to learn from Yadi for a couple years. We need to find our Aaron Rodgers.
Ryllini
- Lombard
If we land Gordon or any of the other top 3 outfield talents, it is not. Should we get Gordon, he probably is a better fit for us in our lineup. You can plug him in the 4-6 hole and covers a glaring need there and you don't lose the lefty bat. JHey is more of the top of an order guy. AG plays good defense, obviously not as good as JHey, but has won 2 GG's if memory serves.
I'm not trying to diminish JHey, he is a hell of a player, but if the Cubs landed JHey(they did) or any of the other top 3 outfielders, everyone(like they are now) would be saying "oh crap, they are loaded".
Point is, we don't live or die by keeping or losing JHey, but we definitely need to be pro-active in finding his replacement.
dsboyce
- Golden, IL
I liked Heyward and hoped he'd be back, but I'm glad the Cardinals didn't pony up this kind of money for him. In my opinion, the Cubs overpaid significantly for him. Heyward only had the 5th best OPS among NL right fielders last year. He had a lower OPS than Grichuk, Piscotty and Holliday. Among qualifiers, he only had the 18th highest OPS among MLB outfielders.
I know he's pretty darn good defensively, but he isn't THAT good. I don't care what all the WAR statistics say. Cespedes and Gordon both had a higher OPS than Heyward. I'll gladly take one of them for less years and a lower price. Even better, give me Davis at first base and move Piscotty to RF.
I know he's pretty darn good defensively, but he isn't THAT good. I don't care what all the WAR statistics say. Cespedes and Gordon both had a higher OPS than Heyward. I'll gladly take one of them for less years and a lower price. Even better, give me Davis at first base and move Piscotty to RF.
orangeroses07
- Centralia, IL
Cespedes isn't attached to a draft pick, take that FWIW.
mattcoldagelli
- The Transfer Portal with Do Not Contact Tag
Heyward would have been a pretty expensive road block to Piscotty playing outfield. I am excited to watch Piscotty play every day. Hopefully Holliday and Grichuk can stay healthy. Pham our 4th.
This isn't the worst day in Cardinal Nation history.
In hindsight, the bigger flop was trading Jenkins and Miller for Walden and a one year rental of Heyworth.
This isn't the worst day in Cardinal Nation history.
In hindsight, the bigger flop was trading Jenkins and Miller for Walden and a one year rental of Heyworth.
dsboyce
- Golden, IL
Lol, I'm sure all you Cubs fans will enjoy having that career 0.784 OPS hitter taking up $23 million dollars of roster space. I'll pass.
mattcoldagelli
- The Transfer Portal with Do Not Contact Tag
Hahaha ok
This honestly sounds like the short sighted words of a Cubs fan. Heyward will be a tremendous addition for the Cubs and his value over the next few years is tremendous. What would be more concerning for me, with respect to Heyward, is what his value will be once he hits about 30. His defense will fall off and he will be a very expensive mediocre player. I'm curious what the 3 year out is in his contract and who's option it is. If it is the Cubs, this may be a great deal for them because that is also when they have to start worrying about Schwarber and Bryant.
217sports
- Springfield
It's not the Cubs who have the option I promise you that
He is entering his prime physical years and plays elite defense. How much was Ozzie Smiths defense worth?
He did drive in 60 runs last year.
I wish the Cards could have kept him, but the price seems out of whack to me, too.
I know you're not going to like this based off your previous post. But WAR is a pretty big factor in contracts these days. And I don't know why you would disregard it.
But you are right, it's been talked about all season long...how much is Heyward really worth? There hasn't really been a player like him in free agency to compare contracts. Plus, he was kind of inconsistent in his time with Atlanta. Let's see if he earns it in Chicago.
I posted on the Cubbie board that JH is a better fit in Chi than StL. The Cards need a 3 hole/4 hole guy with some pop that gets guys in front of him better pitches to hit.
Or they need a .300 BA .400 OBP 40 SB leadoff guy so Marp can move down in the order.
Heyward is neither of those. Classic 2hole/6hole hitter.
Excellent defensive OF and a very solid all around player, but not worth 8/184 to StL IMO.
Or they need a .300 BA .400 OBP 40 SB leadoff guy so Marp can move down in the order.
Heyward is neither of those. Classic 2hole/6hole hitter.
Excellent defensive OF and a very solid all around player, but not worth 8/184 to StL IMO.
Do 300 ba 400 obp and 40 steal guys even exist anymore? I would be happy with anyone above a 280 ba with at least a 340 obp and 20 plus steals but even those are hard to find. You pretty much have to develop them because you don't want them on high contracts for speed guys after the age of 30 or 31.
the national
- the Front Range
No sour grapes here but this gives the cardinals options to fill some more important needs, which is a good 4th hitter who can scare oposing pitchers. We need a 1st baseman, not a right fielder. The sad part to me of not getting Hayward is that he is a perfect fit for Chicago. He is exactly what they were missing last year. I really liked our young guys. Pham, piscotty and especially Grichuk have a lot of potential. Lets face it, we need to bring in some young fresh blood in the lineup everyday and we got that at the end of last year and won. We are really close to having all the pieces and getting a first baseman would do it. A proven starter wouldn't hurt either
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After a day to cool off about this I think it was lucky for the cardinals that he chose chi, strictly from a money standpoint. It sounds like he turned down even more money from stl. I think that would have handicapped us slightly. Obviously, I would love to have Jhey manning rf/cf for the next 6-8 years, and he does so many good things on offense whether it's getting on base, or taking extra bases, but for 23M+ he doesn't fill our biggest need. What we really need is power and run production, and Heyward just doesn't do that we'll enough to be worth that kind of money for our club. IMO it's a bad contract for the cubs to pay him that much, but if they have the money to spend (and they do) then i don't think it really matters, because he will be a great player and will do other things to help them win besides driving in runs. Where I think this contract may hurt them is when it comes time to pay Rizzo and Bryant. If heyward is worth 23M then what are they going to have to pay them?
As for the cardinals, if they can pry Gordon away from KC and get a starting pitcher I think we will have done a good job. Gordon should come cheaper than heyward, is a lefty, and seems to have more power as well as great defense. He also won't require quite as long of a contract which is right up Mo's alley.
There are some arms availiable yet too, but not getting price hurt. It sounds like he woke up that morning planning to accept the cards offer until Boston swooped in with their offer. I really liked Zimmerman too, and think he could have got more money from a better club if he had waited for price and greinke to sign first.
Other options out there for a bat that provide power are Davis, and Upton, luckily we have some versatility to be able to move some current players around on defense so we aren't locked into having to sign a player at one certain position. There are also guys out there on the trade market, like Cargo and Frazier, but I don't know if we have/are willing to give up prospects for them, but will be interesting to see what happens.
One thing I know is we aren't done making moves. Mo isn't just going to sit on his hands and watch chicago take this division away (on paper)
Oh yeah, one more thing.... JONATHAN BROXTON *@\#!&@*!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
As for the cardinals, if they can pry Gordon away from KC and get a starting pitcher I think we will have done a good job. Gordon should come cheaper than heyward, is a lefty, and seems to have more power as well as great defense. He also won't require quite as long of a contract which is right up Mo's alley.
There are some arms availiable yet too, but not getting price hurt. It sounds like he woke up that morning planning to accept the cards offer until Boston swooped in with their offer. I really liked Zimmerman too, and think he could have got more money from a better club if he had waited for price and greinke to sign first.
Other options out there for a bat that provide power are Davis, and Upton, luckily we have some versatility to be able to move some current players around on defense so we aren't locked into having to sign a player at one certain position. There are also guys out there on the trade market, like Cargo and Frazier, but I don't know if we have/are willing to give up prospects for them, but will be interesting to see what happens.
One thing I know is we aren't done making moves. Mo isn't just going to sit on his hands and watch chicago take this division away (on paper)
Oh yeah, one more thing.... JONATHAN BROXTON *@\#!&@*!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
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I think we end up with Upton and Maeda. Just a guess.
dsboyce
- Golden, IL
dsboyce
- Golden, IL
I understand that WAR is the popular statistic right now. I believe it is very flawed, though. It places too much emphasis on defense.
Ryllini
- Lombard
I'm glad some of you guys are coming around on JHey not coming being a really big blow. It stinks for me, because he is a great fit for the Cubby lineup. Should we land Gordon, we get the better player overall and better fit for our team and more than likely cheaper. Gordon or one of 3 top remaining outfielders probably will more than likely come with a shorter contract as well, but still giving us time to develope the outfielders we have and the draft picks we get from the Cubs.
I'm curious to see what the details were of the contract we offered. If we offered 10 years 200 mil, did he really take less money to go elsewhere? Yes and no, he would be making 20 mil a year under that deal, but is making 23 mil a year under his current deal. So more money over more years or more money annually over shorter years, so the narrative he took less to go there is all about how you look at it. If the reports are true we hit or exceeded the 200 mil number, I highly doubt it would've been for 8 years, I don't think any player would 17 million less to leave an uber competitive team. I also don't think we would offer him 25 million annually.
I'm curious to see what the details were of the contract we offered. If we offered 10 years 200 mil, did he really take less money to go elsewhere? Yes and no, he would be making 20 mil a year under that deal, but is making 23 mil a year under his current deal. So more money over more years or more money annually over shorter years, so the narrative he took less to go there is all about how you look at it. If the reports are true we hit or exceeded the 200 mil number, I highly doubt it would've been for 8 years, I don't think any player would 17 million less to leave an uber competitive team. I also don't think we would offer him 25 million annually.
Ryllini
- Lombard
Well, if defense is what they needed and it was, then it is worth it. His defensive runs saved are undeniable and if that helps mask problems with their pitching staff as a whole, they paid for what they needed. I give the Cubs credit, they said as soon as they feel they are ready to compete, they would go out and get guys, and they sure have. Promises kept are very good for the fan base, but it and quickly turn on you if you spend and it doesn't work out.
I disagree about it being a big blow. He's a great player who would have helped us, and now he plays for our chief rivals in our own division. It's the money that makes it palatable for me. He's not worth that to us. We don't have the money that chicago has, they can absorb a bad contract (IF it turns into one.) We can not. Have to be smarter with our money. 20M annual would have been a reach for us, 23 is ridiculous. I think we are all in agreement there. It just sucks losing players to the cubs is all.