Regardless if he’s right or wrong, the fact of the matter is there’s a clear misalignment in incentives between him and the University. The university is incentivized to uphold its reputation
TSJ Thread
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It’s probably fairly likely neither TJ or the alleged victim knew who that girl was, so no way to find her
skyIdub
Winged Warrior
I'm definitely saying she may be mistaken about who assaulted her, not about what happened. She may have mis-identifed him as the assailant. She went through pictures of the the various teams to identify who assaulted her. She he almost certainly saw TJ that night but was he truly the "perp?" She had her back to him, it was a crowded bar, supposedly there was another woman on TJ's arm at the time. There were other people there that could have done it, from what I've read.
danielb927
Orange Krush Class of 2013
- Rochester, MN
This perfectly summarizes why some of us are so annoyed by some people lecturing us about the seriousness of the charge or that Illinois is a respected academic institution or that sexual assault victims didn’t receive justice 20 years ago … I’m not running for office! I’m not assembling a platform! I don’t care about anything but the facts in this case that we have available and whether or not they seem like enough to accuse TJ of such a serious offense. Personally, I think everyone here knows deep down that they do NOT seem like enough. And I’d wager some are doing some serious mental gymnastics and word salad just to painstakingly appear in a certain light on the *issue of sexual assault* or something, leading to condescending accusations that we are like “looking at this through O&B glasses.”
Each case is different. And so far, this case stinks to high Heaven. And nobody should be talked down to for coming to that (rather obvious IMO) conclusion here.
Let me try to say this without any word salad (brevity is not my strong suit): what I think is happening here is a classic case of "contextualizing" versus "decoupling" norms in argument. This is a concept I came across a year or two ago, and I see it so often now that I almost can't understand how I didn't realize it myself.
To define the terms, a quote (source):
In other words, where you think you're being reasonable by just talking about the case, others perceive your refusal to address the social context or implications outside TSJ as an evasion, or showing lack of care about sexual violence. When they try to rationalize that, bias is an easy explanation.
By contrast, you suggest that others are performing mental gymnastics, when in reality, they have an expectation that these issues also bear addressing as part of the debate. When you try to rationalize that, "trying to appear in a certain light" is an easy explanation.
I don't believe there's a right or wrong style. I do think that society has been moving more towards contextualizing styles of debate for most of my adult life (can't recall if that's discussed in the link). And I think online debate has amplified opportunities for this mismatch to manifest as mistrust or hostility. Heck, even these TSJ threads might be a good case study in debate across two norms.
Meanwhile we are all wearing Orange & Blue glasses. I respect that almost everyone here is doing their best to look around them, but we can't pretend like any of us are totally unbiased.
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To me, this is one of the biggest questions regarding the evidence.
IANAL, so, just me thinking out loud...do they have corroborating witness accounts, but the DA is holding their cards tightly for now and proceeding with the minimum needed to charge him? Did those interviews hurt their case, but the DA doesn't believe them since they are TSJ's friends, so they're leaving them out until forced to turn them over to the defense? Or did they simply not interview any other potential witnesses?
Board certified ophthalmologist Dr. Blinder, with the Retina Institute in St. Louis. Not making it up.
I don’t see the judge overriding Illinois. That would take some real guts. Is there someone out there who can take an educated guess at Terrance’s chances?
Dr. Blinder makes frequent trips to Quincy, so can confirm
'Rush to judgment:' Why suspended basketball star Terrence Shannon Jr. is taking the University of Illinois to court
Illinois indefinitely suspended Shannon after he was arrested and charged with rape.
www.yahoo.com
Interesting read. Also interesting reading comments from outside people
My offspring had a circumcision performed by a "Dr. Peters." Not kidding.
danielb927
Orange Krush Class of 2013
- Rochester, MN
Thanks for the thoughtful response. That's a great point, and not one I'd considered. The desires to survive, thrive, and support the "in group" are certainly strong; I suppose that I would have unconsciously lumped those desires into the notion of "being a good person", but I think your delineation between those and the desire for moral goodness at a higher cognitive level is quite astute.
yeah I'm nowhere near well versed in this, but I would bank on the TRO being denied. but if it Is accepted, he's going to play, I'd be shocked if he didnt. I don't think it's a Pierre Pierce situation, because he pleaded down to a lesser charge, but was not fully cleared. he should have probably been kicked off the team once that happened.
Sounds a lot like my company's corporate-mandated-for-all Unconscious Bias class!
If you had video of TSJ entering the bathroom, for example, and then his accuser entered the bathroom before TSJ is seen leaving the bathroom, it doesn't prove what might have happened in the bathroom but it does show that they were both in relatively close proximity to one another for a period of time.
The prosecution isn't counting on this proving anything. It's merely one piece of their puzzle that they'll use to try to show TSJ had an opportunity to do what's been alleged.
Maybe the paranoid Illini fan in me is rearing it's ugly head Total Recall style, but I'm in the camp that this isn't quite as flimsy as many think it is. I've read that the uncorroborated testimony of the accuser in sex offenses is 49% of the required evidence needed for a conviction. In some cases/states it's the only evidence needed.
I, 21ChampaignSt, would have reasonable doubt, I think. But for TJ's sake, I hope this doesn't come to a jury trial because it could come down to who the jury believes and sympathizes with more.
None of us here will ever know what “really happened” at the Hawk. But the witnesses who were present do. And it seems that only one of them (the accuser) saw groping and penetration. Not even the friend who accompanied her saw it.
So, what I am trying to say is that regardless of what “really happened,” any criminal defense lawyer with basic skills should be able to use the fact that not a single witness in a crowded bar can corroborate the accuser’s story to create reasonable doubt in the minds of jurors. It is perplexing that the DA filed charges on these facts.
Where are you seeing that her back was to him? The language isn't the most precise, but I think it suggests she was facing him: "the male used one hand to pull her towards him...the male's hand was around behind her".
To me, the weakest part of that account is that she "was not sure which hand" performed the assault. I imagine a defense attorney could make that seem like she couldn't possibly know it was his hand if she didn't even know which of his hands it was. That doesn't make him innocent, and (IANAL) doesn't necessarily mean there isn't enough to charge him.
danielb927
Orange Krush Class of 2013
- Rochester, MN
Not exactly what I was going for, haha. I mean, yes, we all have bias and we are all trying to present ourselves in a light that seems persuasive... but that was more of a unifying point. What I really wanted to get across was a belief that the majority of all disagreements are, or at least start with, people just talking past each other based on different styles of debate and different worldviews.
A lot of stuff happened off-camera that night. Nearly every conceivable event known to man, actually. Put that in your report, officer.
i want him to have not done this and i want him to not face these charges but until such time as he is no longer actively being charged with a crime i do not want him to play for my alma mater's basketball team
this whole situation sucks. there's no easy answers.
That was probably instructed because the whole things falls apart if she says he did this right-handed.
uiba99
I'd rather be at Allerton
If you can successfully use the word 'ancillary' in a non-legal context you are now able to practice in Alabama.
Also I *am* a lawyer but am not to be taken seriously.
You're missing the mindset of most in law enforcement that it's there job to gather evidence to support an arrest and close their case, not the other way around. You are giving way to much deference to the boys in blue. Anecdotal experience from a 1st degree murder case here in Central Illinois where the lead detective prepared no report detailing a conversation he had with my client's probation officer that he had a face to face meeting in their office, which just happened to be in California, and that was at a time of day where there was no way he could have been here at the time of the shooting.
BirdDog9048
The Chief Lives
- Chicago, IL
So, the ol' guilty until proven innocent approach then?
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