Update: D.J. Williams back with Illini

#101      

combes

C
combes
FiveStar said:
Agree on Kipper. Especially if he can't hit the kick out 3s. Also if he's comfortable taking a dribble or 2 attacking the rim, those two skills would complement each other nicely.

I agree I have always seen DJ as a 3 and nothing else. Because of this, I think his lack of positional versatility and the potential motor issues hurt his chances. Not a good enough handles to be a 1 or shooter to be a 2, not strong enough to be 4. But ideal height and length and good athleticism for the 3. Some kids just put it all together late. Maybe he's gonna be one of them.
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Kipper can make threes. He will start at the three next year, imo.

C Tilmon
PF Black
SF Nichols
SG JCL
PG Lucas

This appears to be the likely lineup to start the year with guys like Frazier pushing. Hope DJ comes back and competes. And, also, I hope Smith is part of the equation.
 
#102      

89illinigrad

89illinigrad
Chicago
89illinigrad
People act like DJW has only been seeing garbage time all season. He actually average nearly 16 minutes per game through our first 6 games (including the 2 exhibitions).

Its only when we got to the stretch of close, tough games that Groce leaned heavily on Hill and DJW's minutes dwindled. He hasn't seen much tic since, with the exception of 14 minutes in the WVU blowout and it appears that AJ may have jumped ahead of him on the depth chart.

Also, KN has not replaced DJW in the rotation, he replaced Thorne, while TJL replaced Tate. DJW would not be getting any minutes from those two spots.

Basically, unless we have a blowout, which doesn't happen too often in the BIG, its unlikely that DJW would get much tic the rest of the season. However, once Hill graduates, the door is open for him to EARN the starting spot.
 
#103      

BillMo

B
BillMo
combes said:
Kipper can make threes. He will start at the three next year, imo.

C Tilmon
PF Black
SF Nichols
SG JCL
PG Lucas

This appears to be the likely lineup to start the year with guys like Frazier pushing. Hope DJ comes back and competes. And, also, I hope Smith is part of the equation.
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If DJW is back , if Da Williams is healthy,and we land Smith, and of course if Groce is still the coach come big ten time It will be interesting to see who is starting. I agree at the start of the year that will be the line up maybe DJW in Kippers spot, just based on the fact Groce likes to start the older players. I still think we need to land another Big no matter if its a 5th year or Fr. I still prefer a FR.
 
#104      

BillMo

B
BillMo
89illinigrad said:
People act like DJW has only been seeing garbage time all season. He actually average nearly 16 minutes per game through our first 6 games (including the 2 exhibitions).

Its only when we got to the stretch of close, tough games that Groce leaned heavily on Hill and DJW's minutes dwindled. He hasn't seen much tic since, with the exception of 14 minutes in the WVU blowout and it appears that AJ may have jumped ahead of him on the depth chart.

Also, KN has not replaced DJW in the rotation, he replaced Thorne, while TJL replaced Tate. DJW would not be getting any minutes from those two spots.

Basically, unless we have a blowout, which doesn't happen too often in the BIG, its unlikely that DJW would get much tic the rest of the season. However, once Hill graduates, the door is open for him to EARN the starting spot.
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I agree kind of, DJW was playing behind Hill and BLack/Finke now that Kipper is playing the 4 behind Black Finke has moved to the 5 sp still leaves DJW behind Hill who unless she gets fouls just isn't giving much time for DJW to be on the court. Personally I would liked to see Hill get about 30 mins a game and give DJW 10 mins not only for DJW but to rest Hill abit more
 
#105      

LurkLongandProsper

L
C-U
LurkLongandProsper
JoeJ said:
I think Kipper clearly earned his minutes with his consistent effort when we were getting smoked by IU.

Clearly DJW can't get out of JG'd doghouse, but I think even Groce would spell out if you want to see the floor I need to see AB&C and not XYZ. I obviously am not there, but I don't think JG is unfair at handing out minutes. Don't recall anyone aside from DJ's mom complaining of this.

Not saying JG is doing a stellar job, but don't think DJ's lack of minutes, with or without a stellar point guard are anyone's fault but DJ's. Everyone would look better, JG included, and the team would have been much more successful with a great point guard.

If we are mentioning high school, didn't DJ have experience with the board's favorite point guard then?

I wish all our recruits to be successful, the team, the coach.....

Maybe if DJ can "pull a rabbit out of my hat, nothing up my sleeve! No doubt about it, I got to get another hat."

Go Illini!:illinois::chief::illinois:
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He played 11 minutes in his first showing against IU. It's not like he went out there and played heavy minutes, or that he's provided a large sample size of minutes to measure 'consistent effort'.

Also, there has been HEAVY complaints about minute distributions under Groce since the beginning. Lets see, TJL prior to Wednesday night ring a bell? :confused: :thumb: :deadhorse:

combes said:
Kipper can make threes. He will start at the three next year, imo.
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Kipper Nichols has 1 career 3PA, which he made. He also took a long two that looked horrible off the release, so it is definitively premature to say Kipper is a game 3 point shooter. When we say 'make threes', that means 33%+ in-game, not just 'he can make one occasionally if you pray to 4 celtic gods'. At this point, we don't know where in that spectrum he falls, so I think we'll need a noticeably larger sample size before we

(1) label KN as a 3pt shooter
(2) slot KN in any starting lineup -- Beilein commented post-game that he was a complete unknown, and I think that greatly benefitted KN. Other teams having tape on him will certainly be to his disadvantage, so let's not jump the gun there.

It is worth mentioning that Groce has stated in pressers that Leron Black has a green light from 3 (not sure he's said the same of Kipper) based on practice results, and LB is 1-10 from 3 point range right now, so we may have just struck fool's gold on that made KN 3. Who knows, everybody came out and made everything on Wednesday night (which I certainly did not mind)
 
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#106      

Berg88

B
Berg88
combes said:
Kipper can make threes. He will start at the three next year, imo.

C Tilmon
PF Black
SF Nichols
SG JCL
PG Lucas

This appears to be the likely lineup to start the year with guys like Frazier pushing. Hope DJ comes back and competes. And, also, I hope Smith is part of the equation.
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It'll be interesting to see if Jordan ends up with a chance to start at the 3. I think Nichols would be a great sixth man, bringing energy off the bench to spell Black or Tilmon. Then again, I also think AJ makes a lot of sense off the bench too, but one of them will almost certainly be starting.
 
#107      

ChiefIllini

C
ChiefIllini
LurkLongandProsper said:
Other teams having tape on him will certainly be to his disadvantage, so let's not jump the gun there.
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Such an underrated point. This is exactly what happens to players when they first get decent minutes. They come out and impress heavily, maybe even have a good year. Then they start to regress statistically and people wonder what the hecks going on.

A player like Hill resists this game planning by developing other areas of his game that compliment ones that are great. You want to take away a drive? He's gonna pull up and fade. You wanna take away a 3 pt attempt? hes gonna drive. By being a diverse play you prevent defenses keying in on that one area of your game. I remember people swooning over some plays DJW made last year. He didnt take any step forward this year. Definitely not limited to just teams scouting him, but it had something to do with it.

A major force that drives players like Hill to stardom is the players own ability (and the coaches) to see teams are able to shut them down if they key in on a specific aspect of their game. JCL will feel this next year. Got a great fake now but is gonna need to add something to his game to continue to be effective from deep when the team loses a lot of its offensive power.

Kipper can be a solid starter with what he does now because defense and rebounding is something every team can benefit from, and I agree its waaay to early to determine if hes gonna be a good 3 pt shooter. He doesn't need to take 4 or 5 three ptrs a game, but doing something other than what he excels at is what it'll take for him to become a great player.
 
#109      

Tevo

Tevo
Wilmette, IL
Tevo
combes said:
Not really. The players they would start ahead of show a lot of fight, too. Black and Abrams. I like Kipper and Lucas, but you cannot judge their excellence based on one game. They may eventually work their way into the lineup, but let's see them perform well multiple times first.
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Especially a game in which the other team opted not to play any defense. We looked worlds better against UM than, say, Maryland or IU. Some of that was because of Kipper and TJL. Some of it was being at home. Some of it was the simple good fortune of having good shooting nights from everyone. And some of it was most definitely a shockingly soft Michigan defense.
 
#110      

Tevo

Tevo
Wilmette, IL
Tevo
ChiefIllini said:
A major force that drives players like Hill to stardom is the players own ability (and the coaches) to see teams are able to shut them down if they key in on a specific aspect of their game. JCL will feel this next year. Got a great fake now but is gonna need to add something to his game to continue to be effective from deep when the team loses a lot of its offensive power.
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I was critical of JCL earlier this season, likening him to a DJ Richardson, who never learned how to drive and thus limited his own ability to get open shots. But JCL has impressed me the last few games with his willingness to mix the pump fake with an actual 2-dribble drive. His shooting will get guys jumping at him. That fake, and then an actual drive as a counter will give him all the room he needs. Currently, it seems like most of his drives end in drop-off passes to a big, which is fine as an option. But the last step will be developing his pull up jumper or a floater off the drives. If he can add that last element, the sky is the limit.
 
#114      

Calvin

C
Calvin
Tevo said:
I was critical of JCL earlier this season, likening him to a DJ Richardson, who never learned how to drive and thus limited his own ability to get open shots. But JCL has impressed me the last few games with his willingness to mix the pump fake with an actual 2-dribble drive. His shooting will get guys jumping at him. That fake, and then an actual drive as a counter will give him all the room he needs. Currently, it seems like most of his drives end in drop-off passes to a big, which is fine as an option. But the last step will be developing his pull up jumper or a floater off the drives. If he can add that last element, the sky is the limit.
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+1 The difference between NBA level college talent and the borderline guys, is that it's difficult to stop even when you know it's coming. Sometimes guys get just a little better at a couple skills that compliment each other, and they get to that next level.

As an example, I think Hill's step back jumper is very good, and his ability to drive is decent. If both were just a little better, I think we'd be talking about him getting drafted. His defense probably needs some work too, but you get my point.
 
#115      

mattcoldagelli

mattcoldagelli
The Transfer Portal
mattcoldagelli
Is it weird for all of the posters that spend most of four pages dumping all over this kid's work ethic or nah?
 
#116      

coltjames03

C
coltjames03
I find it awful funny that people say they better win this year and also turn around and say hey they all need to get minutes. Let's not worry about the record and just get everyone ready. Also how many of you are at the practice watching them and seeing what's going on. DJW has always had motor issues and the you can't talk about hs isn't true. You practice the way you play the game and if motor isn't in practice then no you don't deserve minutes. You earn them not just oh here's a few for you just because you have a scholarship
 
#119      

Ulysses Everett McGill

Ulysses Everett McGill
Ulysses Everett McGill
Tevo said:
I was critical of JCL earlier this season, likening him to a DJ Richardson, who never learned how to drive and thus limited his own ability to get open shots. But JCL has impressed me the last few games with his willingness to mix the pump fake with an actual 2-dribble drive. His shooting will get guys jumping at him. That fake, and then an actual drive as a counter will give him all the room he needs. Currently, it seems like most of his drives end in drop-off passes to a big, which is fine as an option. But the last step will be developing his pull up jumper or a floater off the drives. If he can add that last element, the sky is the limit.
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It seems to me that JCL's drives have opened up pull-ups already, over the last 4 or 5 games. Gets closed out, takes a short 1or 2 step dribble, then a fairly quick hop-back and jumper. And he's making them, one or two a game. It's a bit of a new wrinkle in his game to me; for all last year and earlier this year he was pretty much catch and shoot all the time from outside.
 
#120      

Old Number 51

O
Old Number 51
combes said:
Not really. The players they would start ahead of show a lot of fight, too. Black and Abrams. I like Kipper and Lucas, but you cannot judge their excellence based on one game. They may eventually work their way into the lineup, but let's see them perform well multiple times first.
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I value your opinion Combes. Maybe I should have included basketball IQ (Leron fouls and Tracy being Tracy) in my statement and not fight only. Many factors figure into who should be playing major minutes. I just hope Groce gives Kipper, TJL and DJW a chance to excel moving forward.


Go Illini!!
 
#121      

combes

C
combes
Old Number 51 said:
I value your opinion Combes. Maybe I should have included basketball IQ (Leron fouls and Tracy being Tracy) in my statement and not fight only. Many factors figure into who should be playing major minutes. I just hope Groce gives Kipper, TJL and DJW a chance to excel moving forward.


Go Illini!!
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I agree with that. Kipper seems to have a higher basketball IQ than Black. At least in the small sample size we have.

And it is fun to watch a true point guard run the team.

I agree with you totally on them getting time as we move forward. DJ is the one who has to prove he really wants it. If he would play with a high motor all the time, he could help this team. But his motor has been an issue not only here but in high school. Not sure how a coach can improve a player's motor. Lou Henson used to say that the biggest incentive is riding the bench. But that hasn't seemed to light the fire under DJ yet, except in spurts.
 
#122      

Deleted member 10676

D
Guest
Deleted member 10676
mattcoldagelli said:
Is it weird for all of the posters that spend most of four pages dumping all over this kid's work ethic or nah?
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Probably no more so than if they'd started a Fire Groce -uh, coaching carousel - thread six games into the season.
 
#123      

mattcoldagelli

mattcoldagelli
The Transfer Portal
mattcoldagelli
miketherevelator said:
Probably no more so than if they'd started a Fire Groce -uh, coaching carousel - thread six games into the season.
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No, I'm pretty sure I'll always feel fine about evaluating our 45-year-old head coach, in year five of his tenure, based on the results he is very well-compensated to achieve.

Especially in comparison to running down the character of a 19-year-old kid.
 
#124      

Deleted member 10676

D
Guest
Deleted member 10676
mattcoldagelli said:
No, I'm pretty sure I'll always feel fine about evaluating our 45-year-old head coach, in year five of his tenure, based on the results he is very well-compensated to achieve.

Especially in comparison to running down the character of a 19-year-old kid.
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So, nah in both cases.
I didn't read anybody running down the character of a 19-year old kid. At least in my case, I discussed his motor consistency problems, which have been discussed on this board since he committed to Illinois. And aren't exactly a secret since most evaluators were saying the same thing since he was in high school.