Let's be honest. Our FB and BB programs would finish in the middle of the pack if we were playing in the MAC. Groce lost me last night. This is not a one-off, this is a pattern.
Winthrop 84, Illinois 80 OT POSTGAME
He's not out of condition. He just isn't a refined basketball player. He really has one post move he does over and over. Just like last year except we were feeding him the ball more the few games he played. Of course that was pre Mav becoming a serviceable big man. Now he isn't starting, getting less minutes and less touches. If minutes and touches increase then you'll see his numbers go up. Same with any player really.
TheFameProtector
- Champaign
Was at the game last night, few thoughts...
I've been a Groce supporter since the hire, so I'm certainly not calling for his head, but it is getting a bit more difficult to fully support his coaching. So much of our offense just goes nowhere until one person (late in the clock) just decides to drive and do something. Otherwise, we consistently waste 10-15 seconds of the shot clock by passing around the edges, yet the passes aren't fast. Each player stops to reassess the court when getting the ball, and any value from flipping from strong to weak side is lost on these slow passing sequences. Then...one player decides to drive with less than 10 seconds left. Every time. Maddening.
Part of what plays into this is the people on the court. I like Tate because he's scrappy and plays with heart, but the lack of spacing he provides is crushing our ability to get in the paint. When we have Tate, Abrams, Hill, Leron, and Mav/Thorne on the court, we legit have two shooters on the court (Leron is decent but not a "shooter"). That just doesn't cut it. I understand valuing experienced ball handlers, but we also have to value shooting since we don't have crazy athletes that put it on the floor particularly well. Heck, one of our best runs last night happened with AJ and JCL on the floor with Abrams, Leron and I believe Finke (might've been Mav, can't remember for sure).
Finally, everyone has been calling for TJL over Tate galore. The whole goal of playing the players you think are best is so that you have the best shot of winning the game. Get that, fully behind it. But, if you both lose the game AND don't play the player fans are pumped to see in action, then you are falling on your sword twice. Sure, the coach knows best, but fans want to see players play, especially when we know it will get more difficult as the season progresses. At least if TJL played and was awful, that might quiet some of the rumblings.
Long story short, I think that Groce's management of playing time along with combinations on the court has a long ways to go. Judging solely off who plays best in practice is invariably going to value seniority on game day, but that discounts the ability of talent to shine when on the big stage. Hoping we can see improvements in this area soon.
I've been a Groce supporter since the hire, so I'm certainly not calling for his head, but it is getting a bit more difficult to fully support his coaching. So much of our offense just goes nowhere until one person (late in the clock) just decides to drive and do something. Otherwise, we consistently waste 10-15 seconds of the shot clock by passing around the edges, yet the passes aren't fast. Each player stops to reassess the court when getting the ball, and any value from flipping from strong to weak side is lost on these slow passing sequences. Then...one player decides to drive with less than 10 seconds left. Every time. Maddening.
Part of what plays into this is the people on the court. I like Tate because he's scrappy and plays with heart, but the lack of spacing he provides is crushing our ability to get in the paint. When we have Tate, Abrams, Hill, Leron, and Mav/Thorne on the court, we legit have two shooters on the court (Leron is decent but not a "shooter"). That just doesn't cut it. I understand valuing experienced ball handlers, but we also have to value shooting since we don't have crazy athletes that put it on the floor particularly well. Heck, one of our best runs last night happened with AJ and JCL on the floor with Abrams, Leron and I believe Finke (might've been Mav, can't remember for sure).
Finally, everyone has been calling for TJL over Tate galore. The whole goal of playing the players you think are best is so that you have the best shot of winning the game. Get that, fully behind it. But, if you both lose the game AND don't play the player fans are pumped to see in action, then you are falling on your sword twice. Sure, the coach knows best, but fans want to see players play, especially when we know it will get more difficult as the season progresses. At least if TJL played and was awful, that might quiet some of the rumblings.
Long story short, I think that Groce's management of playing time along with combinations on the court has a long ways to go. Judging solely off who plays best in practice is invariably going to value seniority on game day, but that discounts the ability of talent to shine when on the big stage. Hoping we can see improvements in this area soon.
Yeah, when Tate was actually on him he played pretty good defense. I mean you just aren't gonna lock someone down. The offensive player has every advantage. He got a lot of buckets off of screens and switches and what not. Then the last two minutes hit and Tate played like crap. That's what everyone remembers.
Been hoping to see improvement for years...what's the definition of insanity boys?
He's also a diabetic. I'm not a doctor, but apparently that makes recovery from a significant injury much more difficult, not to mention getting back in top shape. He certainly looks far from 100% to me.
Deleted member 3875
D
Guest
I was replying to a previous post about conditioning. Until Tilmon arrives, we will be average at best in the post.
midastouch11
- New York, New York
Not playing Te'Jon Lucas last night was a travesty. In a game where you at least admitted to seeing the other point guards getting worn out, you didn't think to put in the more talented and quicker freshman? At least for fresh legs?
That's assuming we are "a tournament team".
This is where I am about this point, too. I've been an Illini fan for almost 50 years now, and Illinois basketball losses used to absolutely haunt me for days (back when we didn't have many losses in a season). I would lose sleep at night over them (I know, crazy).
Over the last 10 years however, I've gradually come to the point where it doesn't faze me as much. Last night's loss would have driven me nuts. Now, whatevs.
Though I am not giving up on this team or this season. I still think we can surprise. But we HAVE TO PLAY HARD for all 40 minutes. In the five years since John Groce has been here, there haven't been too many of those nights however.....
Some of the reasons we lost, in order of importance:
1. Turnovers (especially unforced ones)
2. Lack of inside-out scoring/passing
3. Biting on defense
4. Unnecessary shots
5. Charity stripe failures
...
10. Keon and the boys draining threes and circus shots
I think it would be naive to say that Winthrop won the game based on skill and teamwork. But, they have plenty if it. There scorers are for real and we bit way too hard on taking away certain guys when most of that team can score in some capacity.
What I'm saying here is we can blame the lose on luck, because the certainly were lucky about 8 or 9 of those points went in, but if we played smart and efficient, they could've made another 8 or 9 lucky points and we still would've won. This game showed us what we could be when we were using our bigs and passing it around. It also showed us what we could be when we force shots and play hero ball.
I noticed at the end of the first half--yes Hill was playing well, but he forced a couple of awkward shots up and missed them both. Now normally, they probably somehow go in, but today they didn't. That's on Hill to realize his step back eradicate shots aren't falling today. Not saying he shouldn't try them anymore, or that after he misses one or two he should stop, but he's gotta pick and choose when to take risks, and those 4 or 5 shots he forced up that didn't fall were costly--but not the only reason we lost.
I could go on about how individuals could be labelled as losing us the game, but in reality its falls on leadership. With 3 minutes left and a 10 pt lead, you should be able to close out anyone (maybe give blue bloods a 50/50 shot of making it back in). The 6? seniors we have need to be control whats happening on the court. The guy in the orange tie needs to better communicate our objective for each possession. It's that simple. These are young guys, but they are some of the oldest young guys in the nation. A team of thinker closes games. Not an individual trying to make plays up multiple possessions with time running out.
That all being said its a long season that I believe guys like Tracy and Malcolm will have to command to be steer us towards a tourney bid--Groce has proven he cant.
1. Turnovers (especially unforced ones)
2. Lack of inside-out scoring/passing
3. Biting on defense
4. Unnecessary shots
5. Charity stripe failures
...
10. Keon and the boys draining threes and circus shots
I think it would be naive to say that Winthrop won the game based on skill and teamwork. But, they have plenty if it. There scorers are for real and we bit way too hard on taking away certain guys when most of that team can score in some capacity.
What I'm saying here is we can blame the lose on luck, because the certainly were lucky about 8 or 9 of those points went in, but if we played smart and efficient, they could've made another 8 or 9 lucky points and we still would've won. This game showed us what we could be when we were using our bigs and passing it around. It also showed us what we could be when we force shots and play hero ball.
I noticed at the end of the first half--yes Hill was playing well, but he forced a couple of awkward shots up and missed them both. Now normally, they probably somehow go in, but today they didn't. That's on Hill to realize his step back eradicate shots aren't falling today. Not saying he shouldn't try them anymore, or that after he misses one or two he should stop, but he's gotta pick and choose when to take risks, and those 4 or 5 shots he forced up that didn't fall were costly--but not the only reason we lost.
I could go on about how individuals could be labelled as losing us the game, but in reality its falls on leadership. With 3 minutes left and a 10 pt lead, you should be able to close out anyone (maybe give blue bloods a 50/50 shot of making it back in). The 6? seniors we have need to be control whats happening on the court. The guy in the orange tie needs to better communicate our objective for each possession. It's that simple. These are young guys, but they are some of the oldest young guys in the nation. A team of thinker closes games. Not an individual trying to make plays up multiple possessions with time running out.
That all being said its a long season that I believe guys like Tracy and Malcolm will have to command to be steer us towards a tourney bid--Groce has proven he cant.
I think most of us love John Groce the person and really want him to succeed not only because we are Illinois fans but because he is great guy as well. I really had high hopes for him when he came in and those have slowly dwindled over time as we keep seeing the same pattern over and over and over again. Good coaches adjust to correct the problems and JFG just does not do that or at least he does not do so in a timely manner.
Year after year we come into the season unprepared to play defensive basketball. Year after year we fail to block out to get rebounds. Year after year we see our team playing mid-major style basketball rather than the style we should be playing. Year after year we see a lack of effort (big time D1 effort) at the beginning of games. Year after year we see everyone running back down court as soon as we throw up a shot with nobody even attempting to rebound. Year after year we see other coaches make adjustments at halftime that we don't see from our coaching staff. Year after year we see questionable substitution patterns. Year after year we see fans noticing which players should be seeing the court and which should not before the coaching staff sees it. Year after year we have 2-4 non-conference losses followed by .500 or conference performances.
We are a really good offensive basketball team but we simply cannot continue to fail to play defense and rebound and expect to beat decent teams. It has been the same story year after year and the excuses (not so much from Groce as the fanbase) get old.
Unfortunately, JFG is simply not a good high level D1 basketball coach and at the end of this season, he has to go if we want to elevate back above the middle to lower end of the Big Ten.
Year after year we come into the season unprepared to play defensive basketball. Year after year we fail to block out to get rebounds. Year after year we see our team playing mid-major style basketball rather than the style we should be playing. Year after year we see a lack of effort (big time D1 effort) at the beginning of games. Year after year we see everyone running back down court as soon as we throw up a shot with nobody even attempting to rebound. Year after year we see other coaches make adjustments at halftime that we don't see from our coaching staff. Year after year we see questionable substitution patterns. Year after year we see fans noticing which players should be seeing the court and which should not before the coaching staff sees it. Year after year we have 2-4 non-conference losses followed by .500 or conference performances.
We are a really good offensive basketball team but we simply cannot continue to fail to play defense and rebound and expect to beat decent teams. It has been the same story year after year and the excuses (not so much from Groce as the fanbase) get old.
Unfortunately, JFG is simply not a good high level D1 basketball coach and at the end of this season, he has to go if we want to elevate back above the middle to lower end of the Big Ten.
I agree 100% on Lucas. He looked good the other day and last night doesn't even get a shot at it. Makes no sense at all!
Announced attendance of 9,502, and I'm sure it was a lot fewer through the door than that. The fanbase is voting with their feet, and I'm sure that Josh Whitman is noticing the thousands upon thousands of empty seats in this newly renovated arena.
Not playing him in the previous games was the travesty.The ball moved pretty well when he got major minutes against McKendree.We are going to need him at some point in almost every game from here on out whether he's ready or not and at this rate its going to be not.Anyone that thinks Tate is an adequate BIG caliber pg is pretty delusional imo.This is probably the first time in 45 plus years of watching college basketball that I've ever heard props given to a player whose man just dropped 38 on him.Maybe no one could have done better on him on defense but shouldn't we have been able to exploit his size on the other side of the ball?
It was a non conference game, 3 days before Thanksgiving. I dont think this is a huge deal
Without doing an exhaustive review, a lot of these OOC games used to be announced at 11-12K or so - for example, we played Brown on Monday 11/24/14 and announced 11,422. Last year, these were in Springfield, so it's a little tougher to make comparisons, but our game Saturday 12/19/15 against South Dakota State was 11,714.
I'm sure season ticket numbers keep attendance up, and all of those had a lot of no-shows, but it's a bad trend. It's even worse if we're losing season ticket holders.
Tevo
- Wilmette, IL
No kidding! Nobody deserves that!
This is the sentiment every single time we lose a game we shouldn't. I'm the first one to call the season quits, but it's still young in the season. Once Groce fails to make adjustments, then we can start the yearly talk. Disclaimer: I know Groce isn't known to, but he's still got to be given a chance.
The only thing more sickening then watching a lousy ILLBB loss? Listening to a White Sox broadcast.
My God, what a huge difference there is in University of Illinois fans vs. University of Illinois supporters.
I support this team, these kids, this coaching staff..unconditionally.. as long as they represent this University.
If this staff continues to run a program that holds young men accountable and continues to recruit without succumbing to the dirty BS we all know takes the 5 star recruits out of this state....the same kind many of you thought would take JT away from us last week...I will support them week in and week out. I will grumble at the losses, shake my head at the bad ones such as this, and clap, stomp and cheer at the wins.
The NCAA has created this atmosphere where winning at any cost, money, exposure, and irrational upheaval take precedent over education and morals.
We lost to Winthrop. Get over it. Victory comes in other forms. Winning a basketball game isn't necessarily the biggest victory.
Oh, please stop! Groce is hardly the Mother Teresa and model of ethics and accountability in college basketball. We had become the laughing stock of college basketball with our prominent position on the police blotter and multiple other intra-squad incidents the last few years. The administrative belt has tightened significantly around Groce and staff trying to change the culture and image of the program.
We have hardly been the model of basketball program both on or off the court.
Groce and staff need to collect themselves and try to make the tournament this year, which IMO is very doable. One bad loss will not matter, but we need to make it up along the way. Plenty of basketball to be played.
What an embarrassing press conference by Groce. Beating Winthrop at home would have been a "heck of a win". His words and his tone should speak loudly. Losing in humiliating fashion at home to Winthrop is just business as usual at this point. Groce has cemented a culture of losing at Illinois.
Tevo
- Wilmette, IL
It's harder to believe that when the ESPN write-up says things like, "Winthrop enjoyed what will likely be their most impressive win of the season." When they aren't expected to beat anyone more impressive than a picked-10th-in-the-B1G Illinois team, they sure sound like a bad team.