Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (October 2016)

[Tevo]

For the Indiana visitors to the board: What is the IU fans' perspective on "Creaning"? Do they think Crean runs players off any more or less than any other coach? Do they think it's just part of how big time programs run, and Crean and IU are no different? Or do they feel a little oogy about the "what have you done for me lately" tone of it all?

 

[troym22]

I really hope we can pull in Kiir. That would make for a great class, with a little depth added from him. Not sure if Groce gets a 6th after that, but we shall see

 

[Second and Chalmers]

From 2013-2016 they only picked up one 3 star guy according to 247. In 2017 they have 3.

They were a miracle shot away from a national title mere months ago, yet I still feel like all is not operating at full power at that program and I haven't felt that way since the Hansbrough class left.

They just feel like the Ringo of the four true blue bloods for some reason.

 

[Obelix]

They were a miracle shot away from a national title mere months ago, yet I still feel like all is not operating at full power at that program and I haven't felt that way since the Hansbrough class left.

They just feel like the Ringo of the four true blue bloods for some reason.

They are also trying to weather the storm right now, keeping a lower profile than usual, basketball-wise.

 

[Brass Cannon]

For the Indiana visitors to the board: What is the IU fans' perspective on "Creaning"? Do they think Crean runs players off any more or less than any other coach? Do they think it's just part of how big time programs run, and Crean and IU are no different? Or do they feel a little oogy about the "what have you done for me lately" tone of it all?

For me it's all come down to how straight he is with the kids at the outset. Did he tell Grant Gelon for example that he had a one year try out? Otherwise that's probably a scholarship we'd like to have back.

It's also important to note that sometimes the Creaning was actually kicking kids off the team for behavior. Remy Abell got creaned so to speak but really he got kicked off the team for repeatedly getting in trouble as a result of alcohol. Repeatedly is the key word there also

 

[combes]

For me it's all come down to how straight he is with the kids at the outset. Did he tell Grant Gelon for example that he had a one year try out? Otherwise that's probably a scholarship we'd like to have back.

It's also important to note that sometimes the Creaning was actually kicking kids off the team for behavior. Remy Abell got creaned so to speak but really he got kicked off the team for repeatedly getting in trouble as a result of alcohol. Repeatedly is the key word there also

The fact that fans from schools outside the BT know what creaning is and the term has become a common term in college basketball tells you something.

You don't really believe that a kid signs a scholarship with IU knowing from the outset that he has a year to prove himself or he is gone, do you? If Crean does that, I hope every coach in the country uses that against him in recruiting. That would not even be negative recruiting if he was stupid enough to do that. No wonder some parents don't like him.

 

[kuhl84]

What I meant by "They know" is they have to realize it's a formality. I never meant they were personally informed. I'm just sharing what I know, not trying to be a jerk. Since everyone is getting angry, I'll stop sharing.

Fair enough. I'm not trying to "dog pile" on any poster.

I took the "They know" comment as the Wilkes had informed UCLA and UI that it was over. There is no way that happened, because it would have leaked by now.

From your definitive post, I don't know what else could be deduced. Apparently, my conclusion was incorrect.

 

[WiscIllini]

What I meant by "They know" is they have to realize it's a formality. I never meant they were personally informed. I'm just sharing what I know, not trying to be a jerk. Since everyone is getting angry, I'll stop sharing.

I just don't get why they should "realize it's a formality" or why you seem to be so confident in it. If the other staffs think they have a chance (and a lot of information out there suggests they do) then it appears this is wide open. Will be interesting to see if he attends HH, either way.

 

[Brass Cannon]

The fact that fans from schools outside the BT know what creaning is and the term has become a common term in college basketball tells you something.

You don't really believe that a kid signs a scholarship with IU knowing from the outset that he has a year to prove himself or he is gone, do you? If Crean does that, I hope every coach in the country uses that against him in recruiting. That would not even be negative recruiting if he was stupid enough to do that. No wonder some parents don't like him.

Some kids would jump at a chance to play in a power 5 conference and if that's there only chance it's not so ridiculous never said Crean does it with every kid.

 

[Cubby Blue]

Some kids would jump at a chance to play in a power 5 conference and if that's there only chance it's not so ridiculous never said Crean does it with every kid.

If by "some kids" you mean low ranked kids, then I do see your point.

 

[UrbanaIsTheShiz]

Dream update: No update.

As a reminder, 3 days before Tilmon committed, I posted on here about a dream I had that he committed. I had no information whatsoever...my full connection to recruiting info is..this message board.

I am 1 for 1, however.

I have not seen Wilkes, but I will let you know if I do.

 

[combes]

As far as fans know, but that may be different from what coaches know.

I meant that there are a lot of variables. A player could get hurt during the year and not be ready to make the jump. He could have a bad year.
Bryant is probably the only surefire draftee.

 

[Adnarel]

I only put stock in Billiken dreams.

Next.

 

[SescIllini]

I only put stock in Billiken dreams.

Next.

If your not smart enough to run away from a Billiken that is chasing you, then good luck at your next school.

 

[Obelix]

I meant that there are a lot of variables. A player could get hurt during the year and not be ready to make the jump. He could have a bad year.
Bryant is probably the only surefire draftee.

Injuries aside, being a surefire draftee is often less of a driving factor anymore. For example, Blackmon Jr. is not a surefire draftee but will not be a surefire draftee next year either. So it comes to whether he wants to stay at IU and graduate or start his pro career somewhere. Given how he flirted with NBA draft last year, I'd say chances are that he is probably leaving. My point is that these players may have shared with their coaches a lot more what fans know.

BTW, I think OG is definitely gone as well.

 

[Maedhros]

For the Indiana visitors to the board: What is the IU fans' perspective on "Creaning"? Do they think Crean runs players off any more or less than any other coach? Do they think it's just part of how big time programs run, and Crean and IU are no different? Or do they feel a little oogy about the "what have you done for me lately" tone of it all?

Since I've been lurking I may as well respond. I think every transfer is the decision of the player. Sometimes that player makes a decision on his own. Sometimes that decision only comes after a discussion with the coach about what that player's role will be in the program going forward. Sometimes that discussion is a frank one, and the player won't like what they hear. But I don't believe any player is ever forced to leave a school without ultimately giving their consent. Maybe that's naive of me, but a transfer to a different campus is such a huge change that I can't imagine it being forced on anyone without the public hearing about it. The only family I can ever recall claiming they were mistreated has been the Pattersons, and Indiana has a plausible story to tell for why Ron wasn't admitted.

I would tend toward believing Crean experiences transfers about the same as the rest of the programs out there. Each year the national sports writers compile a list of the offseasons transfers and the average is about two per program. That's about what Crean has averaged in his time at Indiana. Last year there weren't any transfers out of the program. But because a lot of transfers happened early on, the reputation stuck.

I also believe there's a bit of a chicken or the egg question when it comes to transfers and over-signing. Do players have to leave because Crean over-signs, or does Crean over-sign because he knows players plan to leave? As fans, we see the recruit sign during the year and then a current player leaves after the season. But that could be a post hoc fallacy. As fans, we'll know the conversations that are taking place between player and coach. If Crean knows Thomas Bryant, OG Anunoby and James Blackmon plan to go pro after the season - NBA or otherwise - and knows Priller plans to graduate and leave and that Hartman plans to play this year, then what looks like oversigning by five is just Crean fillig out his roster.

 

[Obelix]

Since I've been lurking I may as well respond. I think every transfer is the decision of the player. Sometimes that player makes a decision on his own. Sometimes that decision only comes after a discussion with the coach about what that player's role will be in the program going forward. Sometimes that discussion is a frank one, and the player won't like what they hear. But I don't believe any player is ever forced to leave a school without ultimately giving their consent. Maybe that's naive of me, but a transfer to a different campus is such a huge change that I can't imagine it being forced on anyone without the public hearing about it.

I actually think the opposite for the vast majority of transfers, not just oversigning, including our own transfers. If the coach tells you that you do not fit int heir plans, you have to transfer. Giving your consent is just a formality.

 

[TCTORNADO]

And the list is Ron Patterson, Malik Story, Nick Williams, Jeremy Hollowell, Bobby Capobianco, Maurice Creek, Austin Etherington, and Matt Roth. Pretty compelling.!!
Forgot Bawa Muniru.

 

[BirdDog9048]

I actually think the opposite for the vast majority of transfers, not just oversigning, including our own transfers. If the coach tells you that you do not fit int heir plans, you have to transfer. Giving your consent is just a formality.

Well, you could choose to stay, but it would probably be pretty awkward for all parties going forward.

 

[Obelix]

Well, you could choose to stay, but it would probably be pretty awkward for all parties going forward.

I honestly believe that once the coaches tell you that you do not fir their plans, you leave. Not much you can do, players never stay. JMO.

 

[ILL in IA]

I honestly believe that once the coaches tell you that you do not fir their plans, you leave. Not much you can do, players never stay. JMO.

Agree. And like MOST things, its not what you say, its how you say it. I don't see anything wrong with letting a kid know he will have little to no playing time because of how the roster works out and where they are at on the depth chart, and that if they would like to find more playing time, they are free to pursue a transfer. I don't believe anyone posting on Loyalty has been in the room for one of these conversations with Crean for us to know the absolute truth on how these work out. So as an Illini fan I will chose to believe the worst about Crean and continue to hate him.

 

[frozenrope9190]

So as an Illini fan I will chose to believe the worst about Crean and continue to hate him.

That's the spirit!!

 

[WesterveltVictoryCigar]

I would tend toward believing Crean experiences transfers about the same as the rest of the programs out there. Each year the national sports writers compile a list of the offseasons transfers and the average is about two per program. That's about what Crean has averaged in his time at Indiana. Last year there weren't any transfers out of the program. But because a lot of transfers happened early on, the reputation stuck.

I haven't checked this out to be completely sure, but it seems to be Crean is the most active when it comes to over signing, then having to have guys leave. It's true many programs also have transfers, we're all aware of those numbers and the media has made a big deal of it. But with most other programs, it seems to me most players are leaving after the fact, they're unhappy with playing time or get in a coach's doghouse and end up leaving. Then the coach ends up filling those spots in the next class. IU's just seem to be more often "front loaded", but that may just be my perception.

I also believe there's a bit of a chicken or the egg question when it comes to transfers and over-signing. Do players have to leave because Crean over-signs, or does Crean over-sign because he knows players plan to leave? As fans, we see the recruit sign during the year and then a current player leaves after the season. But that could be a post hoc fallacy. As fans, we'll know the conversations that are taking place between player and coach. If Crean knows Thomas Bryant, OG Anunoby and James Blackmon plan to go pro after the season - NBA or otherwise - and knows Priller plans to graduate and leave and that Hartman plans to play this year, then what looks like oversigning by five is just Crean fillig out his roster.

Good question, certainly the coach has to protect his own interests if he suspects a player is going to leave, either to turn pro or seek greener pastures. A tough balance to keep and it would be interesting to hear some of those conversations, both with the existing and prospective athletes.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Creaning has gotten pretty rampant nationally, and for good reason. It's an important roster management tool for coaches who must win games to preserve their livelihoods every single season.

The reaction shouldn't be to shame Tom Crean for innovating, it should be to reform the nature of NCAA scholarships in order to give recruited athletes the protection they deserve.

There are some rumors that two-and-done is going to be the new standard when the next NBA collective bargaining agreement is signed. That would be a convenient moment to prompt a fundamental rethink at the college level.

 

[Cubby Blue]

There are some rumors that two-and-done is going to be the new standard when the next NBA collective bargaining agreement is signed. That would be a convenient moment to prompt a fundamental rethink at the college level.

Bout time we got back to Fundamentals! Maravich drills at 6. :thumb: