Coaching Carousel

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#976      
I was at a h.s. tournament a few years ago in FL and had a seat right behind Marcus Liberty and have hoped the Illini would hire him since then. No college eperience, but runs summer camps, h.s. coach, AAU, Chicago ties and played on my all time favorite Illini basketball team.
Wish they would hire me, no coaching experience, played high school ball, I've heard of AAU and been to Chicago, and am also a fan of the 89 flying Illini

Sorry couldn't resist
 
#977      
I read the "leaks" the same way as you did. It seemed Walker's recruiting tactics were a little "too grey area" for the AD and BU had to finesse that situation with the AD.

The grey areas of recruiting can be argued ad nauseum. We have a variety of posters that think we are "dirty" and plenty that think we are "clean". I tend to err on the side of thinking all high level recruiting takes some level of "grey area" activities. The shade of grey allowed varies greatly from school to school. Just because Jamal wasn't the lead recruiter for kids, does not mean he did not have connections to donors, alumni, etc etc.

I also tend to think there is a reason that he was hired by Drew at Grand Canyon. Drew knows how the game is played too.
If Jamal is dirty, he must not be very good at it.
 
#981      
Was Walker the assistant who landed Jeremiah Tilmon? Obviously that didn't work out well at all but was a huge get at the time.
Yes. He is still credited with Black and JCL. I think he is a good recruiter. There were issues in St. Louis and the Metro East beyond his control.

From the outside looking in, Walker's reassignment coincided with the hiring of Gentry. From what I gather, Gentry oversaw the transition from the spread to the ball screen offense.
 
#982      
If Jamal is dirty, he must not be very good at it.
On the surface I fully agree based on who he has been the lead for. However some part of me still thinks it is hard to define "dirty" vs "clean". If we were truly in the know about all the actual practices of recruiting I think we would find there is a such a variance in the shades of grey area based on what is allowed within each program. It's not a "fully dirty" or "fully clean" program. It is a matter of what each program allows to happen, how far they will go to win, and the program donors. (I coached at a much lower level of NCAA and I know how those recruiting battles go. I cannot even fathom how cutthroat things are at the D1 level).

I think common sense says that if Jamal is being mentioned by a very reputable source as a possible return, even if he is a plan B guy, then it can be assumed that BU holds him in high regards and wants him for a reason. I hate to assume but if Chin and OA are the recruiters on staff and they're leaving then one can surmise that recruiters are what BU is targeting.

Everything I have read has said Chester F. is both a solid recruiter and solid defensive coach. He ticks all the boxes. If Mennenga is still targeted then his recruiting acumen is well established. The same can be said for Kimani Young. If Jamal is listed as a backup option to those guys then I think we can assume that he has some recruiting chops, even if he is not the "elite" level recruiter that OA or Mennenga are. Spitballing here but it is very possible a staff of something like Frazier, Young, and Walker sort of hits the middle ground of being good solid recruiters but also good solid developers of players and X's and O's guys.

Like BU said "We are a top 10 program". I like to think we are targeting top flight asst coaches.
 
#983      
Yes. He is still credited with Black and JCL. I think he is a good recruiter. There were issues in St. Louis and the Metro East beyond his control.

From the outside looking in, Walker's reassignment coincided with the hiring of Gentry. From what I gather, Gentry oversaw the transition from the spread to the ball screen offense.
I would take Jamal back in a heartbeat. He is a good X and O's guy who really started the change in the defensive philosophy and he understands the recruiting game as well. Gentry would have to be gone for this to even be considered though.
 
#984      
Wish they would hire me, no coaching experience, played high school ball, I've heard of AAU and been to Chicago, and am also a fan of the 89 flying Illini

Sorry couldn't resist
Not at all, KB was my favorite.
 
#985      

haasi

New York
I read the "leaks" the same way as you did. It seemed Walker's recruiting tactics were a little "too grey area" for the AD and BU had to finesse that situation with the AD.

The grey areas of recruiting can be argued ad nauseum. We have a variety of posters that think we are "dirty" and plenty that think we are "clean". I tend to err on the side of thinking all high level recruiting takes some level of "grey area" activities. The shade of grey allowed varies greatly from school to school. Just because Jamal wasn't the lead recruiter for kids, does not mean he did not have connections to donors, alumni, etc etc.

I also tend to think there is a reason that he was hired by Drew at Grand Canyon. Drew knows how the game is played too.
Just because I’ve never seen it spelled out here, what are examples of “grey area” recruiting?
 
#986      
I read the "leaks" the same way as you did. It seemed Walker's recruiting tactics were a little "too grey area" for the AD and BU had to finesse that situation with the AD.

The grey areas of recruiting can be argued ad nauseum. We have a variety of posters that think we are "dirty" and plenty that think we are "clean". I tend to err on the side of thinking all high level recruiting takes some level of "grey area" activities. The shade of grey allowed varies greatly from school to school. Just because Jamal wasn't the lead recruiter for kids, does not mean he did not have connections to donors, alumni, etc etc.

I also tend to think there is a reason that he was hired by Drew at Grand Canyon. Drew knows how the game is played too.
There are no grey areas. Certain acts/behaviors are disallowed. Everything else is fair game. When people talk about operating in the grey area, they mean cheating, but only cheating a little so as to not attract the attention of the NCAA. This is further complicated by the fact that the NCAA is tasked with ensuring compliance, while simultaneously benefitting from the cheating. Schools that generate a lot of revenue, therefore, benefit from minimal NCAA oversight.

Schools like Kansas and North Carolina don't operate in a grey area. They cheat like hell, but their actions are overlooked by the governing body because the governing body benefits from the cheating. We don't generate that kind of revenue, though, so we can't cheat like hell. If we started pulling the kind of crap that's business as usual at Kansas, the NCAA would be all over us like stink on a monkey to prove how carefully they police compliance. I honestly don't think we cheat too much, because I don't think we're allowed to. This disparity is one of the unspoken reasons that it's way easier to recruit at, say Kentucky, than Illinois, making Kentucky a more attractive AC job.
 
#987      
Just because I’ve never seen it spelled out here, what are examples of “grey area” recruiting?
As I said the term is hard to define. I do not think there is a catch-all that defines it. You do as much is allowed without getting in trouble or openly drawing the eyes of the NCAA. I am sure many of these type activities push the limits of what is allowed and carry some risk. What does your school/AD/coach allow you to do? Clearly some operate under a whole different set of rules. In some cases there are transfers of money, in some areas there are fringe benefits and jobs for families, etc. You never know what factor will get the recruit to buy what your selling. The NCAA as shown they will come down on some programs harder than others so those factors have to be weighed as well.

Recruiting is very cutthroat and in any competition "you have to go to kill and not be killed". We are all crazy die-hard Illini fans. That is why we are posting on a message board this early in the morning. I want a staff that pushes the envelope right to the line of what is allowed because that seems to be what it takes to succeed consistently. Chris Bell did a great documentary about cheating in sports in America called "Biggers, Stronger, Faster." It focuses on performance enhancing drugs but the underlying theme is that you will at all costs. I think that can relate on a lot of fronts with high level D1 sports and can be tied to recruiting. Many schools do what it takes to win the recruit.

I hope that gives some clarity as to my views of grey area. I am still new to this forum and I am just trying to pose some ideas to people who are far more plugged into the program than a small town HS teacher with a spare prep period this year haha.

Keep the ideas rolling,

PC
 
#988      

sacraig

The desert
Just because I’ve never seen it spelled out here, what are examples of “grey area” recruiting?

Dis Gonna Be Good Jason Momoa GIF
 
#990      
It has been well documented that high level recruits and/or their relatives/handlers receive all sorts of benefits from various sources, including money, clothes, jewelry, cars, jobs and even homes/apartments. None of that is paid for by a University directly (other than some jobs), but coaching staffs are aware of the available benefits and can facilitate the necessary introductions. This has been going on for decades, and is difficult for the NCAA to root out even if it truly wanted to. The trick for the coaches is plausible deniability, which mainly means no email/text trail and not getting caught speaking of such things on a recording.
 
#992      
What makes you doubt the fit?
I am not sure that Chester has cultivated some of the areas that we need to recruit. I'm sure he is a competent recruiter...maybe even very good. But he also has not really been at a school at this point where he's been able to reel in some real high level guys. If you are hiring for recruiting ties, I can't imagine any coach from KState or VaTech would be the way we would want to go. Also, he would be leaving the east coast where he had wanted to be to come back to the Midwest and other than this being his alma mater and maybe money, I am not sure what the draw would be for him to leave VaTech.
 
#993      
I can’t confirm nor deny since the job openings haven’t even been posted….but where there’s smoke there’s….

Makes me think Nick Irvin. I haven't seen much discussion on him and I understand some of the concerns. But now that he's spent a year at Western, maybe it works out. Definitely an asset in Chicago and Western has pulled some pretty decent players to a place that many good players have not wanted to be for a long time.
 
#994      
Makes me think Nick Irvin. I haven't seen much discussion on him and I understand some of the concerns. But now that he's spent a year at Western, maybe it works out. Definitely an asset in Chicago and Western has pulled some pretty decent players to a place that many good players have not wanted to be for a long time.
The issue with going back to the MIF well is that it still alienates the Illini from the other Chicago hoops programs. Unless there's a near-guarantee that hiring an Irvin will land IL MIF's best prospects for another 2-4 years, I don't think it's worth it.
 
#995      
I would take Jamal back in a heartbeat. He is a good X and O's guy who really started the change in the defensive philosophy and he understands the recruiting game as well. Gentry would have to be gone for this to even be considered though.
@illini0440 any reason why Gentry would need to leave in order to bring back Walker? Is it because he doesn't directly replace what you are losing in OA and CC?
 
#996      
The issue with going back to the MIF well is that it still alienates the Illini from the other Chicago hoops programs. Unless there's a near-guarantee that hiring an Irvin will land IL MIF's best prospects for another 2-4 years, I don't think it's worth it.
Hire the best person/people for the job(s). If he is the best person, but that upsets other Chicago programs, then so be it. In my opinion, at least.
 
#997      

chrisRunner7

Spokane, WA
UNC's dubious courses for athletes. UK's luxury athletic dorms. Those are technically legal. Loaning a hungry athlete 10 bucks for a slice pizza is deemed an extra benefit.

Remember, they offer garbage classes to ALL their students at that supposedly "good" university. That's why it wasn't cheating. :rolleyes:
 
#998      

JFGsCoffeeMug

BU:1 Trash cans:0
Chicago
The issue with going back to the MIF well is that it still alienates the Illini from the other Chicago hoops programs. Unless there's a near-guarantee that hiring an Irvin will land IL MIF's best prospects for another 2-4 years, I don't think it's worth it.
If you chase too many rabbits, you'll end up with none.

If we are really looking at bringing an Irvin onto staff, it's likely because we want to strengthen our own established connections to the MIF program and also undercut the loss of Chin. Chin might have an in with MIF, but it'll be tough sledding for him to go up against an actual Irvin. And if we're bringing on an Irvin ahead of their coaching competency, then there will be a huge additional pressure on them to make it happen on the recruiting trail. It's not that different from hiring someone as a 1-2 year stopgap to land Tre Mitchell. It's not necessarily a bad strategy, but you are correct that it is high risk-high reward.
 
#999      
plus didnt podz choose and sign to Illinois over Kentucky, exactly where Chin went? tough situation, hope he likes Brad and his new teammates enough to stay
Kentucky won't take him now..they have their shooters in Fredrick, Grady, and maybe MIntz..and will pick up TyTy next week so no room at UK
 
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