TSJ Thread

[IlliniKat91]

For it to be a rape charge it needs more than an inappropriate non consensual touching. There has to be penetration as I read Kansas law. How did that happen in a bar?

Penetration can be done by the male sex organ, fingers, or another object per Kansas law (it's been posted numerous times in this thread). Touching the surface of the female sex organ counts as penetration under the statute.

It's incredibly easy to undo someone's fly without anyone noticing. No one had to get naked for this.

 

[21ChampaignSt]

This is wrong on so many levels....

I agree

 

[NarrowJ]

For it to be a rape charge it needs more than an inappropriate non consensual touching. There has to be penetration as I read Kansas law. How did that happen in a bar?

Kansas law considers any object entering the female sex organ to be "intercourse". It could be a penis, finger, a cigar, anything, apparently. The story is it was a finger, which isn't hard to accomplish. But it would require either (a) she was not wearing much clothing or (b) some force/struggle occurred to get the hand in there.

 

[IlliniFaninHoosierLand]

Yup, don't go to bar. Don't socialize. Sheesh

That is in no way what I was saying at all. No need to be obtuse about this.

 

[freddbird]

Loren Tate just said on the radio that Bill Self is doing everything he can to help TSJ.

Does TJ have another year of eligiblity we don't know about??

 

[Illini92and96]

I don’t think anyone has a problem saying that false accusations are horrible. And when an accusation proves to be false, there should be harsh penalties. However, at least for me, it was you saying that false accusations happen 3x more than real accusations now. That is just not backed up by any legitimate studies and to say so is very misleading and dangerous. Especially if you truly are in the psych/counseling field and regularly deal with these situations, then you really need to better inform yourself as your involvement has real consequences.

Also, more generally, to everyone saying this was in a crowded bar, so any force would have been noticeable, any force used can be very subtle. In fact, in my understanding, it could have even just been the threat of force. So certainly doesn’t mean that people around would have noticed anything.

Nonetheless, none of us have really a substantial FACTS. We have plenty of rumors that may or not be true. But we certainly should not be jumping to any conclusions based on unsubstantiated rumors.

TSJ may be innocent. I certainly hope he is for all parties involved. But he may also be guilty. We just don’t know yet and to assume one way or the other at this point is inappropriate.

Wouldn't society be much better across all situations if things worked like this:
1. accusation
2. withhold all judgment on either side
3. gather facts and clarity
4. determine the consensus judgement based on facts and clarity
5. take appropriate measures based on the judgement
6. crucify people in the media or court of public opinion after the judgement is handed out

In an ideal society we would be in between step 2 and 3 saying let's see how things play out.

 

[Mike Black]

Kansas law considers any object entering the female sex organ to be "intercourse". It could be a penis, finger, a cigar, anything, apparently. The story is it was a finger, which isn't hard to accomplish. But it would require either (a) she was not wearing much clothing or (b) some force/struggle occurred to get the hand in there.

Exactly nonconsensual digital penetration is considered rape in Kansas

 

[sacraig]

Motion to rename this thread "Why I'm Not On Facebook".

Motion denied.

You may proceed with your irresponsibly rampant speculation, counselors.

 

[jacekpardol]

I would. The man has been getting out of trouble for decades

haha funny...

Let's give Bill some credit. He has been very gracious towards the program and if what Tate was reporting is true we own him huge kudos. He has nothing to gain and everything to loose.

 

[Butters]

Then in this case I immediately have reasonable doubt anyway. EDIT: the report clearly states "use of force" does it not?

No, it says the accuser was "overcome by force or fear".

 

[sacraig]

A witness can be a person that says “yeah she told me he did it.” Doesn’t mean they saw the event.

As an occasional viewer of crime procedurals, my experiences tells me...

 

[Old Farm Illini]

For it to be a rape charge it needs more than an inappropriate non consensual touching. There has to be penetration as I read Kansas law. How did that happen in a bar?

Unfortunately, it happens more often than you’d think. It always seems to look consensual despite both people being drunk. I get what the law says about consent but there would be charges every night at any given college bar if it was handled the way it is written, right or wrong.

 

[IlliniFaninHoosierLand]

This is wrong on so many levels....

This could be said about several posts in this thread and the previous thread regarding this story.

 

[TheGMan]

Kansas law considers any object entering the female sex organ to be "intercourse". It could be a penis, finger, a cigar, anything, apparently. The story is it was a finger, which isn't hard to accomplish. But it would require either (a) she was not wearing much clothing or (b) some force/struggle occurred to get the hand in there.

Well the bolded is just not close to being true at all. It’s also getting uncomfortably close to victim blaming based on what she was wearing. Be better.

 

[aaeismacgychel]

Apparently not as there was hundreds of people there and they can't find even one witness. I've seen comments such as "well it was probably really dark in there" or "it could've been too loud to overhear a scuffle or argument". Well, come on... A man is forcibly raping a girl in a public place and as a juror if there's not one single witness, reasonable doubt begins to seep in. I'm sure out of 12 people, I wouldn't be the only one to . If there is some nuance to the story where the girl was isolated to a storage room or something like that, then the situation becomes more believable.

So, a couple things:

1. Kansas appears to define rape as any amount of penetration with any object, something that theoretically could possibly be a very sudden and brief event. Based on that definition, it doesn't seem completely unreasonable that in a dark noisy bar there may not be many if any witnesses if this was a very quick event.

2. Legally there never needs to be another witness for something to be considered sexual assault. In many cases there is nobody else present. And as sad as it is, many people are sexually assaulted at house parties and other places where there are a lot people a relatively short distance from them but don't realize what is happening.

3. We have no information regarding what actually happened yet other than the charge, and what seems to be a very broad Kansas state law definition of rape. I think any jumping to conclusions on what actually happened is probably ill advised until more information is leaked.

 

[NarrowJ]

No, it says the accuser was "overcome by force or fear".

It sure does, thanks. I wonder how they quantify "fear" as an actual measurable thing. Sounds like that would be a judgment call jurors have to make on their own based on testimony and other evidence.

 

[TheGMan]

As an occasional viewer of crime procedurals, my experiences tells me...

There are exceptions to hearsay that could allow it in

 

[sacraig]

There are exceptions to hearsay that could allow it in

That's not what my occasional experience with actors portraying judges tells me.

These fictional anecdotes have informed a lot about my worldview and it's going to be difficult to move me off of it.

 

[hoopsfan47]

It's going to be horrible either way. Every fan section is going to be chanting "KU" or something similar at them all season, regardless of what happens. You might as well do it with your All-American candidate as not at that point.

That may likely be the case. However, it only serves as proof how childish and uneducated are those that engage in such behavior. One would think the universities, and even the B1G, would have a vested interest in proactive prevention. The vast majority of athletes I have known over a lifetime of competition certainly do not appreciate or condone that kind of "support" or atmosphere.

 

[TheGMan]

That's not what my occasional experience with actors portraying judges tells me.

These fictional anecdotes have informed a lot about my worldview and it's going to be difficult to move me off of it.

Ugh I know you are joking, but unfortunately this can be applied to about 90% of this thread’s posts. And that’s just sad

 

[NarrowJ]

I think its okay for the general public to discuss this. If you're looking for an "attorney-only" message board, im sure they exist.

 

[IlliniKat91]

That may likely be the case. However, it only serves as proof how childish and uneducated are those that engage in such behavior. One would think the universities, and even the B1G, would have a vested interest in proactive prevention. The vast majority of athletes I have known over a lifetime of competition certainly do not appreciate or condone that kind of "support" or atmosphere.

Tell me you've never been part of Krush without telling me you've never been part of Krush.

Everyone does it. It just is what it is

 

[Illini309]

A witness can be a person that says “yeah she told me he did it.” Doesn’t mean they saw the event.

I know zero about law. Does being listed as witness mean you automatically back the accuser? Or could the nurse be just giving her account of what she was involved in?

 

[sacraig]

Ugh I know you are joking, but unfortunately this can be applied to about 90% of this thread’s posts. And that’s just sad

A lot of people stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

[04-05]

We already VERY much have a “guilty until proven innocent” attitude when it comes to the public after someone is charged, unfortunately. Your Average Joe sees someone charged with a crime and assumes he’s guilty … people just don’t consider “innocent until proven guilty” to be inherently noble from an interpersonal perspective, if they even fully appreciate it as a legal principle.

Make the alleged crime rape … and it gets worse. People keep saying how little we know, but if you START with the presumption of TJ’s innocence (as I believe you should), what little information we have so far has not done much to make him look too guilty. Obviously, January 18th might crash this site, because we’ll hopefully learn a lot then.

Unfortunately we won’t learn anything January 18th. Initial appearances are for the judge to formally read the charges to the defendant and appoint counsel if the defendant qualifies. Often they hold the detention hearing at the same time. Not likely to learn anything.