Coaching Carousel (Basketball)

[Captain 14]

This Self-Weber back and forth reminds me of the distinction I heard a few years back that was drawn between Kansas and Kansas State...Win at Illinois, get hired by Kansas. Lose at Illinois, get hired by Kansas State.

 

[nichi]

Wasn't Weber the same guy who told Derrick Rose he'd have to earn his starting spot?

I am not sure about that. It sounds like an exaggeration of something Weber would say. Bruce did slow play Robbie Hummel and eventually stopped recruiting him after Bill Cole committed. My recollection is he felt Hummel was too thin to play inside and too slow to be a guard.

There were good players Weber could've gotten without cheating. Some say Hummel was one of them.

 

[lstewart53x3]

It is not lunacy to think that if you gave Weber Underwood’s NIL bag that he would have equal or better results. Weber was a very good coach but failed at recruiting (in part because he refused to cheat).

I don’t agree. I wouldn’t have been surprised if Weber did worse in the NIL era, not better. He struggled to relate to players and he struggled to manage big personalities. I don’t see Weber holding onto the best players or bringing in the best players from the transfer portal.

With today’s rules Dee and Deron would be gone after Self left. Self would’ve given them a bigger bag and there wouldn’t have been a penalty for transferring.

So Weber’s fortunate he was around before this new world of college basketball, he would not have fit in well at all.

 

[lstewart53x3]

For anyone that thinks that being a college basketball coach is now easier because you can pay the players, I disagree wholeheartedly.

It’s infinitely more complex today than it was 20 years ago.

Today, you can make an NIL offer to a player and then another team can come in with a bigger bag and scoop that player up. Just like Kansas with Storr last year.

And sure, you could simply match the offer, but resources aren’t infinite, so that impacts your budget to bring in other players.

Then you have to consider how paying one player more impacts morale of the other players on your team who are at a similar skill level.

And that’s just recruiting.

Now, throughout the season, your players are getting back-channeled all season long, where they’re hearing about bigger offers for next season. Instead of focusing on winning games, they’re focused on where the biggest bag is going to come from.

This can impact team culture and winning games. You’re in a constant recruiting cycle for high school players, the transfer portal, and your own team.

There’s a reason why some of the all-time greats are choosing to hang up their whistles. It is not easy to be a college basketball coach right now, even if you’re well-funded.

 

[SAELION]

Again, thank the Lord that this forum has 0440 to bring some sanity to these rant posts.

 

[SAELION]

Silly conclusion. A team can underachieve for many, many reasons that have little to do to whether the coaches are good at developing players.

 

[SAELION]

Weber post Self recruits
23-12, 16-19, 24-10, 21-15, 21-14, 17-15 fired --avg 20-14
3 NCAA in 6 seasons

Groce
23-13, 20-15,19-14, 15-19, ,18-14 fired avg 19--15
one NCAA in 5 seasons

You really want to fire Brad who has made NCAA 5 years in row, one B10 championship, 2 B10 tournament championships, elite 8 last season to get some imaginary better coach when its more likely you get a Weber or Groce?

Ask Indiana how their coach search is going. They are delusional thinking they are going to get Brad Stevens or Dusty May.

Brad has reinvented his system multiple times
- 1st 2 seasons half court trap all game
- Kofi/Ayo feed the low post
- TSJ and KJ five out
JMO our defense against athletic teams is weak and our 3 point goal shooting has been terrible. Brad needs to adjust more to his current personnel.

Excellent post. Nice to see posts based on facts to bring things into perspective.

 

[the national]

Well the one year the one seed was the Illini in a game where they got thoroughly out coached and outplayed.

That Loyola team was very very good but that was a pretty stunning loss because the Illini didn't really even have any hope. Just a thorough beatdown.

Also disappointing because I think that Illini team matched up very well with Oklahoma State and Houston(Kofi and Ayo would have been tough for a small Houston team) who they would have played if they won.

Many many nights I have thought the same thing. I, like the players, thought in an early Sunday game, it would be a solid W. I was shocked by the loss, especially after the way we we won the B1G tournament. Brad sucked us in and then hung us out to dry with that loss. Our fanbase has never been the same since.

 

[SAELION]

Thanks again 0440 to have knowledge of what is happening and done with without revealing private issues.

 

[SAELION]

Jules joined Illinois loyalty on January 21st. Since then, he has posted 46 times. Nearly each and every post has been pompous, nasty, full of one-sided angry opinions, sarcastic and recklessly opinionated. There have been some awful contributors on IL over the years, but Jules has been the worst I've ever seen. Truley brings down the quality of this forum. heartfelt opposing opinions are OK and expected on these forums. Not the crap that he posts. I would feel better if Jules was just a troll, but it seems to me he is just a terribly unpleasant guy. Of course this is just my opinion. I take some heart in that 0440 also dislikes his posts.

 

[SAELION]

By this definition, there are no good college basketball coaches.

Here are the current top 5 highest paid coaches.

1. Bill Self
2. John Calipari
3. Tom Izzo
4. Bruce Pearl
5. Rick Barnes

Bill Self has losses as 3 seed to a 14 seed, a 3 seed to a 13 seed, and as a 1 seed to a 9 seed.

John Calipari has losses as 2 seed to 15 seed and a 3 seed to a 14 seed.

Tim Izzo has losses as a 2 seed to a 15 seed and a 3 seed to an 11 seed.

Bruce Pearl has losses as 2 seed to a 10 seed and a 4 seed to a 13 seed.

Rick Barnes has losses as a 3 seed to an 11 seed (Loyola), 5 seed to a 12 seed, and a 3 seed to an 11 seed (Michigan this time).

Nice. Love posts with facts putting things into perspective. Will the ranters give pause? Probably not.

 

[pruman91]

I’m waiting on Pru and his “magic button” gif

 

[pruman91]

Sure...but I could use one of his Taylor RooKs diversion GIFs.

 

[pruman91]

Sorry for being late to the requests bros.........NL # 3 and I were role playing a Blues hockey player ( me )
and a hockey reporter ( her ) doing an in depth interview about the finer aspects of shooting and scoring the puck.....

we really really did..........................................

 

[Illini 993]

By this definition, there are no good college basketball coaches.

Here are the current top 5 highest paid coaches.

1. Bill Self
2. John Calipari
3. Tom Izzo
4. Bruce Pearl
5. Rick Barnes

Bill Self has losses as 3 seed to a 14 seed, a 3 seed to a 13 seed, and as a 1 seed to a 9 seed.

John Calipari has losses as 2 seed to 15 seed and a 3 seed to a 14 seed.

Tim Izzo has losses as a 2 seed to a 15 seed and a 3 seed to an 11 seed.

Bruce Pearl has losses as 2 seed to a 10 seed and a 4 seed to a 13 seed.

Rick Barnes has losses as a 3 seed to an 11 seed (Loyola), 5 seed to a 12 seed, and a 3 seed to an 11 seed (Michigan this time).

While you are correct as to the specific bolded claim you were refuting, it is a narrow definition. Just to be fair, it should be pointed out that Self has been to the second weekend 14 times, Cal 15, Izzo 16, Pearl 5, and Barnes 9. But, I agree with you that a bad loss or two does not define a good coach.

 

[Illini in Italy]

Dan trying to figure out how to moderate this thread:

 

[mhuml32]

This thread has gotten out of control crazy. Records tell the true story. Bruce couldn’t win without Self’s guys, either because he couldn’t recruit or didn’t cheat (probably a combination of both). But he was and is a good person Groce was over his head at this level, and he is also a good person. He stayed too long because of AD problems. Bruce turned us around and got us back to national relevance, but some key losses like Loyola suggest he has weaknesses at the “coaching” part of being a head coach. Add to that a lot of premature player departures and some unfortunate coaching turnovers, plus hiring his unqualified kid, and we get some concerns. His salary magnifies the problems, as does his apparent rigidity this season, when even casual fans could see that the scheme and lineup needed to be changed.

We can’t dismiss a guy off an elite 8 season, but if he can’t keep MJ, who he underutilized and may be his best returning player going forward, the seat needs to get very warm. NIL and social media have conpressed the time frame for all of this.

I L L

You can't try to lower the room's temperature by throwing in your own "hot take" grenade.

 

[Old Farm Illini]

For anyone that thinks that being a college basketball coach is now easier because you can pay the players, I disagree wholeheartedly.

It’s infinitely more complex today than it was 20 years ago.

Today, you can make an NIL offer to a player and then another team can come in with a bigger bag and scoop that player up. Just like Kansas with Storr last year.

I wouldn’t say it’s easier but it raises the floor for programs that have the top NIL funds. If a program is top 15 NIL, then I expect top 15 results especially if you combine that with high staff salaries. Now it’s not that simplistic since other programs will exceed expectations but on average we should expect those results. Underwood has met those expectations so far.

 

[STLini25]

I don’t agree. I wouldn’t have been surprised if Weber did worse in the NIL era, not better. He struggled to relate to players and he struggled to manage big personalities. I don’t see Weber holding onto the best players or bringing in the best players from the transfer portal.

With today’s rules Dee and Deron would be gone after Self left. Self would’ve given them a bigger bag and there wouldn’t have been a penalty for transferring.

So Weber’s fortunate he was around before this new world of college basketball, he would not have fit in well at all.

With today’s rules (and Whitman) Self would not have left Illinois. It’s a dream spot. If the Illinois job ever opens up again, it will be a coveted job. Maybe 10 schools have more NIL and coaching staff money.

It’s clear people have no idea how difficult it was to recruit top players to Illinois from 1990 until the NIL. Coaching at Illinois has never been easier. Having a top 15 NIL bag and top 10 coaching staff money makes the job WAY easier than trying to recruit kids getting money from other schools when Illinois isn’t paying a penny. It was basically impossible. We basically got no recruits from 1990 to NIL. And there are reasons for the few exceptions which I’m not going to explain.

 

[Illini IndyCar Fan]

While you are correct as to the specific bolded claim you were refuting, it is a narrow definition. Just to be fair, it should be pointed out that Self has been to the second weekend 14 times, Cal 15, Izzo 16, Pearl 5, and Barnes 9. But, I agree with you that a bad loss or two does not define a good coach.

I think we all need to realize that every fanbase thinks that their coach underperforms. There's the same chatter at UConn and KU right now about replacing their HOF coaches. Fans elevate their expectations every time a threshold is broken, no matter how ridiculous those expectations become.

The Underwood era Illini accomplishments:
• Program’s first NCAA Elite Eight appearance since advancing to 2005 national title game
• Big Ten’s winningest team in league play over last five seasons (69-31, .690)
• 69 B1G wins from 2019-20 through 2023-24 are most in school history over five-year stretch
• Four straight NCAA Tournament appearances (fifth precluded by COVID-19 cancelation in 2020)
• NCAA Tournament wins in three of the last four years
• One of only five schools nationally with five straight 20-win regular seasons
• Three Big Ten Championships in last four years
• Five straight top-five B1G finishes, including top-two finishes three of the last four years
• 2024 B1G Tournament Champions
• 2022 B1G Champions
• 2021 B1G Tournament Champions
• Led B1G in wins in 2021
• 2021 NCAA Tournament No. 1 seed (fourth in school history)

... and yet some of us on here are ready to move on to someone else. How ecstatic would the 2017 version of these posters be if they knew the success that the recently hired Underwood was about to bring to Champaign over the next 7 seasons? There'd be talks about a lifetime contract and building a statue outside of SFC, right?

No one in their right mind would be comparing him unfavorably to Groce and Weber, but here we are.

 

[the juiceman cometh]

With today’s rules (and Whitman) Self would not have left Illinois. It’s a dream spot. If the Illinois job ever opens up again, it will be a coveted job. Maybe 10 schools have more NIL and coaching staff money.

It’s clear people have no idea how difficult it was to recruit top players to Illinois from 1990 until the NIL. Coaching at Illinois has never been easier. Having a top 15 NIL bag and top 10 coaching staff money makes the job WAY easier than trying to recruit kids getting money from other schools when Illinois isn’t paying a penny. It was basically impossible. We basically got no recruits from 1990 to NIL. And there are reasons for the few exceptions which I’m not going to explain.

Pre NIL recruits in the top 50 by 247 composite ranking:

Ayo - #32
Adam Miller - #33
Meyers Leonard - #28
Andre Curbelo -#47
Jeremy Richmond - #30
Kofi - #46
JCL - #38
Rich McBride - #31
Leron Black - #42

There were also a ton of guys in the 50-100 range, and then of course guys that predate 247 like Dee Brown (#19 RSCI), Deron Williams (#48 RSCI), Brian Cook (#20 RSCI), Frank Williams (#21 RSCI)

 

[STLini25]

Pre NIL recruits in the top 50 by 247 composite ranking:

Ayo - #32
Adam Miller - #33
Meyers Leonard - #28
Andre Curbelo -#47
Jeremy Richmond - #30
Kofi - #46
JCL - #38
Rich McBride - #31
Leron Black - #42

There were also a ton of guys in the 50-100 range, and then of course guys that predate 247 like Dee Brown (#19 RSCI), Deron Williams (#48 RSCI), Brian Cook (#20 RSCI), Frank Williams (#21 RSCI)

32 years. Wonder what the list looks like if you take off players from the Self and AO eras?

You CANNOT compare the Illinois job pre NIL and post NIL. The ability to compete is COMPLETELY different now. The expectations are higher here after 2021 and justifiably so.

The University is investing a tremendous amount into the basketball and football programs. There are expectations equivalent to that. It like comparing Brett with a top 30 NIL bag in football to how Ron Turner or Tepper did. It’s not a fair comparison. Expectations are higher because we are in a better position to compete.

 

[Rap47]

We're you obelisk the poster from 7 years ago? Bruce Weber took Self's recruits and led the Illini downward to Groce hire. This led to terrible decline until Underwood has rebuilt the program.

 

[21ChampaignSt]

32 years. Wonder what the list looks like if you take off players from the Self and AO eras?

You CANNOT compare the Illinois job pre NIL and post NIL. The ability to compete is COMPLETELY different now. The expectations are higher here after 2021 and justifiably so.

The University is investing a tremendous amount into the basketball and football programs. There are expectations equivalent to that. It like comparing Brett with a top 30 NIL bag in football to how Ron Turner or Tepper did. It’s not a fair comparison. Expectations are higher because we are in a better position to compete.

We are a good program with high expectations regardless of NIL. We've always gotten high caliber players. Our rafters are full of names from pre-NIL. This is surprising but we're like top 10 in terms of points scored all time in the NBA.

We're a top 15 program historically in nearly every metric because of what we accomplished pre-NIL. And now that we have top 10-15 NIL, we'll remain a top 10-15 program.

 

[sacraig]

I had a part in whipping up this fury, but this has taken on a life of its own.