Chicago Cubs 2016 Season

#576      

IanKEvans2

IanKEvans2
IanKEvans2
I'm trying my best to keep up with the Chapman to the Cubs rumors.

Heyman, Olney, and Rosenthal reporting Gleyber Torres (who was scratched from his A+ game tonight) and more going to NYY for Chapman.
https://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/757232630043729921
https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/757362480901296129
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/757367722024075265

The official MLB Twitter profile strangely tweeted out that the Cubs were close to trading Torres for Chapman, pending an extension.
https://twitter.com/MLB/status/757371635229831168

Now Julie DiCaro is reporting Soler could be in the mix for Chapman.
https://twitter.com/JulieDiCaro/status/757381564657381376

Sahadev Sharma says names are agreed upon, with Torres is the big piece to NYY, and Chapman as the only piece coming back to Chicago.
https://twitter.com/sahadevsharma/status/757385225596833793

Yowza.
 
#577      

champaignchris

C
champaignchris
I can't imagine Soler for just two months of Chapman. Torres for Chapman straight up sounds right.

On the field, the Cubs had absolutely no business winning that game today, but I'll take it. Craig Counsell is a pretty awful manager.
 
#578      

ChicagoChief

C
ChicagoChief
So it sounds like this could be Torres and Candelario for Chapman.

Candelario really has no place to go with the Cubs so his inclusion doesn't really do much for me. Torres should be a solid player, but we're still talking about a 19 year old here. Chapman is a guy who you can ask to get 6 outs in a playoff game. If they can get him to sign the 4/$60 extension then this looks like a really solid deal.

And if not, well then sometimes you just have to give to get.
 
#579      

ChicagoChief

C
ChicagoChief
Although Rosenthal continues to suggest the trade is "bigger" than just Chapman. If that is the case then I hope they can pry Michael Pineda. Nathan Eovaldi also fits the Cubs agenda, but man has he been really bad
 
#580      

champaignchris

C
champaignchris
Despite the facts that...

A. I've been preaching for months that even elite relievers don't really add much on a long term basis and won't put the Cubs over the top; and

B. Chapman is quite likely a miserable excuse for a human being,

...I would be inordinately happy to see Chapman in a Cubs uniform for one reason: He's an incredibly fun baseball player to watch as he throws it about a billion miles an hour. Sometimes, for me, aesthetics trumps all.

That said, most reports don't have the Cubs giving up anything that would be a Major League asset for the Cubs any time soon. Torres might be a very good player at some point, but is probably not going to be much better (if at all) than Russell and Baez will be, and those guys are still just 22 and 23.

Chapman is one of the three or four true difference-maker relievers in the game. He might not put the Cubs over the top, but having him is better than not having him.
 
#581      

IanKEvans2

IanKEvans2
IanKEvans2
champaignchris said:
Despite the facts that...

A. I've been preaching for months that even elite relievers don't really add much on a long term basis and won't put the Cubs over the top; and

B. Chapman is quite likely a miserable excuse for a human being,

...I would be inordinately happy to see Chapman in a Cubs uniform for one reason: He's an incredibly fun baseball player to watch as he throws it about a billion miles an hour. Sometimes, for me, aesthetics trumps all.

That said, most reports don't have the Cubs giving up anything that would be a Major League asset for the Cubs any time soon. Torres might be a very good player at some point, but is probably not going to be much better (if at all) than Russell and Baez will be, and those guys are still just 22 and 23.

Chapman is one of the three or four true difference-maker relievers in the game. He might not put the Cubs over the top, but having him is better than not having him.
Click to expand...

To address point A, I am in complete agreement. I've read part of the hangup was the agreement of an extension for Chapman (4 years, $60 million was what I've seen). Giving a 4 year deal to any reliever, including a dominant fireballer like Chapman is risky. However, A 7-8-9 of Strop-Rondon-Chapman is quite enticing, especially with Montgomery, Nathan (wild-card) and a seemingly emerging Edwards, Jr. in the mix.

Now for point B. This is where I am feeling the most cognitive dissonance regarding Chapman. I do believe he is, as you described him, a miserable excuse for a human being. I really, really want to enjoy his 105 mph fastball in a Cubs uniform, but his domestic and gun violence charges are very disturbing to me. If he does become a Cub (which is all but a done deal at this point), I sincerely hope the front office is upfront, direct, and open in their discussion regarding his past and future direction.

Regarding current rumors, it looks like it will be Torres, Warren, and 2 other prospects with only Chapman coming in return.
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/757577420530651136
 
#582      

KBLEE

KBLEE
Montgomery, IL
KBLEE
Looks like Candelario is not in the deal and that Warren will now be heading back to the Yankees with Torres and 2 others.
 
#585      

ChicagoChief

C
ChicagoChief
IanKEvans2 said:
Warren's unreliability (5.83 FIP :eek:) made himself disposable.
Click to expand...

That's also very SSS on the season. He's been very solid in the AL East for 2-3 years now.

So Torres/Warren/McKinney/a nobody for Chapman. McKinney's value has really tanked this season, so he's just filler at this point.
 
#586      

champaignchris

C
champaignchris
IanKEvans2 said:
Warren's unreliability (5.83 FIP :eek:) made himself disposable.
Click to expand...

Assuming the Cubs go back to a 7-man bullpen when Soler comes off the DL, how could you even fit Warren onto the team?

Rondon, Strop, Wood, Grimm, Edwards, Nathan, Montgomery - that's 7 right there before you bring Cahill back from the DL, before you acquire Chapman, and before you bring Matusz up from extended Spring Training.

At this point, if he's not traded, Warren is going to be at AAA the rest of the year waiting to be emergency starter. And there's no real evidence to believe that he'd fill that role better than Montgomery or Wood or maybe Ryan Williams or someone else at AAA.
 
#590      

Deleted member 526137

D
Guest
Deleted member 526137
Second and Chalmers said:
:(

I'm at a bit of a loss for words here. This is the worst trade in all of baseball in years. I am dumbfounded that Epstein would sign off on this.
Click to expand...


If he pitches for the Cubs only this year, it's a horrible deal unless he helps the Cubs win the World Series.
 
#592      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
CLEARWATERDAN said:
If he pitches for the Cubs only this year, it's a horrible deal unless he helps the Cubs win the World Series.
Click to expand...

The outcome of the season makes no difference. You judge a move based on its merits at the time.

If the Cubs win the WS all is forgiven, but it remains a horrendous decision that beggars belief based on everything we understand and have seen from the front office.

The Pistons won the NBA Championship the year they took Darko Milicic. That doesn't retroactively make that a good decision.
 
#593      

IanKEvans2

IanKEvans2
IanKEvans2
KBLEE said:
Shelby Miller says "Hi" (from AAA) :cool:
Click to expand...

:thumb:

The Mariners sending Adam Jones and Chris Tillman to the Orioles for Erik Bedard, stands out for me, too.

The 4-for-1 is without a doubt a lot to give up for a 2-3 month rental (with baggage), but it shores up an immediate need. I don't necessarily like/dislike the trade, but I don't hate it either. I'll trust the judgment of Theo & company.
 
#594      

Ramrod2010

R
Ramrod2010
IanKEvans2 said:
:thumb:

The Mariners sending Adam Jones and Chris Tillman to the Orioles for Erik Bedard, stands out for me, too.

The 4-for-1 is without a doubt a lot to give up for a 2-3 month rental (with baggage), but it shores up an immediate need. I don't necessarily like the trade, but I don't hate it either. I'll trust the judgment of Theo & company.
Click to expand...

Part of me agrees with you (it has been my concern since the start of the year) however with the addition of Nathan, Montgomery, and Matusz I'm not sure that the need wasn't already addressed, even if two of those guys are more projects than anything else. This move feels desperate to me.
 
#595      

IAmChrisFarley

I
IAmChrisFarley
Second and Chalmers said:
The outcome of the season makes no difference. You judge a move based on its merits at the time.



If the Cubs win the WS all is forgiven, but it remains a horrendous decision that beggars belief based on everything we understand and have seen from the front office.



The Pistons won the NBA Championship the year they took Darko Milicic. That doesn't retroactively make that a good decision.
Click to expand...



From what I have read, as I don't follow the Cubs minors, Torres is blocked for the foreseeable future. So theo traded from a position of strength for a position of need. From my point of view, it's not a bad move for either team. But it's damn risky if the Cubs don't re-sign chapman.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#596      

champaignchris

C
champaignchris
I'm not going to say I hate the deal. I don't love it either.

We're giving up:

1. A 19 year old A-ball prospect who is a very good prospect, but not as good a prospect as the two middle infielders who are already here and producing. Torres may be good, but there's probably a better than 50% chance that he won't be as good as either Russel or Baez.
2. A long reliever/swing man that has been awful this year. The likelihood of Warren contributing anything meaningful for the remainder of this season is slim. While he could fix whatever is wrong with him and be a contributor over the next couple years, he's the type of player that can be replaced relatively easily and cheaply.
3. McKinney has turned into a corner outfielder who doesn't hit for power. He looks like he may never be more than a fifth outfielder at best, and maybe not even that as it looks like he can't play center field anymore.
4. The fourth guy whose name I've already forgotten is a nobody.

In other words, the Cubs haven't given up anybody who is likely to be a major contributor to a World Series run at any point over the next 3 or 4 years, while gaining a guy who absolutely makes them better right now.

The problems:

1. He doesn't make them THAT much better - maybe 2 more games in the standings and maybe 3 runs saved over an entire playoff run - and we all would have wanted more tangible immediate impact or the prospect of a long-term impact in return for this package.
2. He simply isn't a likable guy you want to root for.

I guess one point worth making is that Chapman would have quite likely been one of the Cubs' top free agent targets, and this trade makes it such that if you extend him now or after the season the Cubs would not lose a compensatory draft pick. Whereas if the Cubs had not made the trade and signed him as a free agent, they likely would lose the draft pick. So if the Cubs do later extend Chapman you could arguably add that first round draft pick to the Cubs side of the ledger in evaluating the trade.
 
#597      

Deleted member 526137

D
Guest
Deleted member 526137
Second and Chalmers said:
The outcome of the season makes no difference. You judge a move based on its merits at the time.

If the Cubs win the WS all is forgiven, but it remains a horrendous decision that beggars belief based on everything we understand and have seen from the front office.

The Pistons won the NBA Championship the year they took Darko Milicic. That doesn't retroactively make that a good decision.
Click to expand...

This front office is not flawless. Ian Stewart and Jason Heyward say hello. And in Boston, Carl Crawford and a host of others say hello.