illiniswish09
- Northwest Suburbs
Imagine that was the final straw for Holtmann tonight
Is it? This is technically his first BAD season…Imagine that was the final straw for Holtmann tonight
Doesn't he have like a top ten class coming in next year? I think he will be back.Imagine that was the final straw for Holtmann tonight
It is but he hasn't had many good seasons. After his first season it's been pretty middle of the pack for him in the conference and no second weekends in the tournament. Plus Buckeye fans are ready for him to leave.Is it? This is technically his first BAD season…
But it IS a bad season.
They’ve been decent under his tenure, not great, but decent.
Is that enough to fire him?
Daddy Brad is great and I love his passion. That being said I think Holtmann is there to stay. He's a good coach, good recruiter who has had to depend on freshmen this year. They had a good class in '22/23 and a good one next year. They've beaten us regularly until this year, and have been good (not great) for a number of years.Holtmann has to be on his way out, right? This isn't the first time his team has collapsed in the 2nd half of the season. He's never won the B1G, B1G tourney, or made it past the round of 32.
It's funny looking back at the Brad, Archie, and Holtmann hires. All were hired in the same off-season. Archie...gone. Holtmann....all but gone. IIRC, many predicted Daddy Brad to be the worst of the 3.
Holtmann....all but gone.
Daddy Brad is great and I love his passion. That being said I think Holtmann is there to stay. He's a good coach, good recruiter who has had to depend on freshmen this year. They had a good class in '22/23 and a good one next year. They've beaten us regularly until this year, and have been good (not great) for a number of years.
THE OSU is a football school and unless basketball craps the bed, I don't see them making any changes. He's a good young coach.
He just signed a fully guaranteed extension in August, through 2028. They would have to REALLY want to move on. They only had 3 players return from last year's squad. Firing him would be a serious over reaction for a coach who has never missed the tournament and never won fewer than 20 games. Those streaks may be on the line this year, but it's hardly a pattern.He has 3 top-50 recruits coming in next year, and another committed for 2024. Not sure I've seen a coach shown the door under those circumstances. Usually recruiting starts the decline, and a season or two later, if the coach can't win with what they have, and the buyout's been dropping, that's when they get canned.
Sixth ranked class from what I read and on top of a really good one last year. He will get another year at least and likely two....but if not competing to win the B1G and a bid by then, he will be toast.Doesn't he have like a top ten class coming in next year? I think he will be back.
I don't get many posters' fixation an achieving this artificial bar of making the Sweet 16, and the use of this as a measure of the quality of the coach. There are 358 Div. 1 men's teams, and only 16 pass this bar in a season. If we look back over 2010-2019, the following teams made the Sweet 16 more than twice in that 10 year span:
Michigan St. (7)
Wisconsin (6)
Florida (5)
Duke (5)
Kansas (5)
Arizona (4)
Oregon (4)
WVU (4)
Purdue (4)
Michigan (4)
Kentucky (4)
Baylor (4)
Xavier (4)
North Carolina (4)
tOSU (3)
Indiana (3)
Gonzaga (3)
Syracuse (3)
Marquette (3)
Florida St. (3)
Louisville (3)
Tennessee (2)
Texas Tech (2)
Virginia (2)
Butler (2)
UCONN (2)
San Diego St (2)
Florida St (2)
Texas A&M (2)
Miami, FL (2)
Notre Dame (2)
Oklahoma (2)
Wichita St (2)
These total 110 of the possible 160 Sweet Sixteen berths spread across 34 teams Over the ten years. With 358 teams over the ten years, that is 3,580 teams that had an opportunity (however small) to make the Sweet 16. While I didn't look at what coaches were where & when, this gives a pretty good snapshot of who's doing what over this 10 years span. So, if we make the assumption that no teams changed coaches(we know this is not correct, but are using it to control the discussion) that 50 other teams that had a single appearance (160-100=50), plus the teams with multiple appearances (34, or 0.9%) 84 teams have made a Sweet 16 appearance over this ten year span. 84/3,580=0.02234637, or 2.2%. Does this mean the other 97.8% of Div. 1 coaches are not good, or "elites as we like to say around here? Discuss.
Wishful thinking...coming into this year he had 5 straight 20 win seasons at tOSU and finished in the top 5 of the conference 4 of 5 years. He is a very good coach who has given us fits - he's 5-4 against Brad in their respective tenuresHoltmann has to be on his way out, right? This isn't the first time his team has collapsed in the 2nd half of the season. He's never won the B1G, B1G tourney, or made it past the round of 32.
It's funny looking back at the Brad, Archie, and Holtmann hires. All were hired in the same off-season. Archie...gone. Holtmann....all but gone. IIRC, many predicted Daddy Brad to be the worst of the 3.
I guess I'm poo pooing the bar a little, because winning championships (conference and tourney) are pretty important, but are dismissed by many who state they will take a sweet 16 appearance over winning a conference or tourney championship. Making it only to the Sweet 16 is not winning a championship, only winning the natty can outshine a conference or tourney championship in my little Illini mind. But that's just my take on it . . .Not sure exactly what your point is? That only the best teams make lots of Sweet 16s? Because that is precisely the point others are making. We want to be one of the best teams that is constantly making Sweet 16s and beyond. So we want a coach that can deliver that.
Wait a second - The B1G isn't any good. How did they have the top 2 teams?I don't get many posters' fixation an achieving this artificial bar of making the Sweet 16, and the use of this as a measure of the quality of the coach. There are 358 Div. 1 men's teams, and only 16 pass this bar in a season. If we look back over 2010-2019, the following teams made the Sweet 16 more than twice in that 10 year span:
Michigan St. (7)
Wisconsin (6)
Florida (5)
Duke (5)
Kansas (5)
Arizona (4)
Oregon (4)
WVU (4)
Purdue (4)
Michigan (4)
Kentucky (4)
Baylor (4)
Xavier (4)
North Carolina (4)
tOSU (3)
Indiana (3)
Gonzaga (3)
Syracuse (3)
Marquette (3)
Florida St. (3)
Louisville (3)
Tennessee (2)
Texas Tech (2)
Virginia (2)
Butler (2)
UCONN (2)
San Diego St (2)
Florida St (2)
Texas A&M (2)
Miami, FL (2)
Notre Dame (2)
Oklahoma (2)
Wichita St (2)
These total 110 of the possible 160 Sweet Sixteen berths spread across 34 teams Over the ten years. With 358 teams over the ten years, that is 3,580 teams that had an opportunity (however small) to make the Sweet 16. While I didn't look at what coaches were where & when, this gives a pretty good snapshot of who's doing what over this 10 years span. So, if we make the assumption that no teams changed coaches(we know this is not correct, but are using it to control the discussion) that 50 other teams that had a single appearance (160-100=50), plus the teams with multiple appearances (34, or 0.9%) 84 teams have made a Sweet 16 appearance over this ten year span. 84/3,580=0.02234637, or 2.2%. Does this mean the other 97.8% of Div. 1 coaches are not good, or "elites as we like to say around here? Discuss.
I guess I'm poo pooing the bar a little, because winning championships (conference and tourney) are pretty important, but are dismissed by many who state they will take a sweet 16 appearance over winning a conference or tourney championship. Making it only to the Sweet 16 is not winning a championship, only winning the natty can outshine a conference or tourney championship in my little Illini mind. But that's just my take on it . . .
I guess I'm poo pooing the bar a little, because winning championships (conference and tourney) are pretty important, but are dismissed by many who state they will take a sweet 16 appearance over winning a conference or tourney championship. Making it only to the Sweet 16 is not winning a championship, only winning the natty can outshine a conference or tourney championship in my little Illini mind. But that's just my take on it . . .
Disagree. There was just a discussion here this week about Calipari and his lack of SEC titles vs. Self and his Big 12 titles. And I don't think anyone thinks much of historical sweet sixteen appearances either.Regional vs. national discussion. No one outside of the Big Ten gives a crap who wins the regular season or conference tournament. I don't even have any idea how many regular season or tournament titles Izzo has at MSU. But I know he has a decent amount of NCAA tournament success.
Disagree. There was just a discussion here this week about Calipari and his lack of SEC titles vs. Self and his Big 12 titles. And I don't think anyone thinks much of historical sweet sixteen appearances either.
Some smarter mathematician than me can do the formulas, but there is an expected return / likelihood of achievement thing for me. Of course national championships are the best, but we are zero for 55 in my lifetime. Doesn't mean you stop striving for those, but to me conference championships matter. My rough and open-to-debate order is something like this:
National championship
Final Four
Big Ten regular season champ
Big Ten tournament champ
Elite 8 / Sweet 16 / second weekend
I want Illinois to be one of the very best teams in the country and part of that is reaching the second week of the tournament (among other things), but expectations also need to be reasonable. Over the past 26 years, there are all of eight teams who have made the second week in 50% or more years, and 12 more who have made it in 25% or more years, and no team has made it in 75% of those years.Not sure exactly what your point is? That only the best teams make lots of Sweet 16s? Because that is precisely the point others are making. We want to be one of the best teams that is constantly making Sweet 16s and beyond. So we want a coach that can deliver that.
Illinois basically brought back 3He just signed a fully guaranteed extension in August, through 2028. They would have to REALLY want to move on. They only had 3 players return from last year's squad. Firing him would be a serious over reaction for a coach who has never missed the tournament and never won fewer than 20 games. Those streaks may be on the line this year, but it's hardly a pattern.
4 freshmen - including TyIllinois basically brought back 3
- Coleman, RJ, Luke (injured entire season)
Massive roster turnover is normal now in college basketball.
We reloaded with 3 transfers (Dain, TSJ, MM) and 3 freshman (Jayden, Sencire, Skyy (gone).
For OSU, I'm not just talking about rotation players. Holtman had 3 return period. (Key, Sueing, and Brown)Illinois basically brought back 3
- Coleman, RJ, Luke (injured entire season)
Massive roster turnover is normal now in college basketball.
We reloaded with 3 transfers (Dain, TSJ, MM) and 3 freshman (Jayden, Sencire, Skyy (gone).
Like I said, open to debate, and maybe I’m in the minority here. But I cannot fathom not giving a lick about conference titles. Maybe it’s a generational thing and speaks to the differences in college sports today. (I’m flashing over to posts in the realignment thread.)So because some people on THIS board discussed specifically Calipari's lack of SEC titles and compared them to Bill Self's utter dominance, that means something? Also, someone had to look up how many SEC titles Cal has actually won.
How many ACC titles did Coach K win vs. Roy Williams vs. Dean Smith? I have no freaking clue, nor do I care. Go one step further. How many ACC tournament titles did Coach K win compared to Roy? I care even less.
And if you want to go likelihood, since 2000 we have 5 conference titles (shared or solo) and 2 Elite 8s. Give me an Elite 8 (with a chance to make a Final Four) over a conference championship any day.
With mega conferences and unbalanced schedules, conference titles don't mean what they used to.
My tone sounds worse than I mean it to, but honestly, I graduated in 2004 and not a single one of my friends cares a lick about conference titles. That goes for friends from programs outside of the Big Ten as well.