Groce/Whitman Press Conference

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#251      
AutoPoster 3000
GBPillini said:
At least the Chicago media and 670 are talking about Illinois I guess...

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/03/25/the-bernstein-brief-illinois-press-conference-an-empty-show/
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Am I crazy or is pretty much every CBS Chicago article about Illinois athletics built around the thesis statement, "An increasing number of influential boosters and trustees want (____ fired), sources tell 670 The Score."

Talk to me when you get to "An increasing number of influential boosters and trustees want (____ fired) and are willing to pay whatever is needed for his replacement, sources tell 670 The Score." I'm sure a lot of influential people wanted Cubit fired but it wasn't happening until someone starting writing those influential checks.
 
#252      
drwillini
First let me say that I am OK with Coach Groce having another year, but I think his seat needs to be warm enough that he changes some things, and I am not seeing that. He needs to shake up the staff - big time. I am so tired of losing second halves of games. For some reason well coached teams adjust to us better than we adjust to them. I'm so tired of a team that gets two offensive rebounds in an entire game, and doesn't play defense. The team flat out gave up last year, and I think effort was a problem this year as well, although I think it got better late. Seemed like we at least figured out that a lot of defense is to paraphrase Andy Warhol, showing up at the right place. Throw in all the off court issues, and I sorely hoped we would be hearing of a big time staff shake up yesterday. Somebody mentioned adding Jim Crews to the staff, don't know if that was serious or not, but I thought it sounded great. I think Coach Groce needs a Ron Felling or a Tex Winter on his bench.

When we talk about our future optimism, I think we need to understand that the worse the present is, the better a mediocre future looks. The state of the program has gotten progressively worse every year under Groce, and yet we still hope (myself included) that he can recruit his way out of it. That has been the plan all along. A definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a different result. I am still in Coach Groce's corner - barely. I really need to see a recognition on his part that we need to change the way we are doing things, and not assuming like we have for the last four years that we are going to recruit our way back to making the NCAA field.
 
#253      
GBPillini
Robert Bennett said:
See this is what I'm talking about how is that after the first year he was the man for the job , 2nd year he had recruits here that wouldn't even sniffed this place for a visit , and this is his first losing season ever at Illinois , his time here has not been a complete failure just this season and in the mist of his so called failures he still got us a pg and two kids from 17 , things have been dim but not worse. It's like I said we just wanna win but don't wanna go through the rebuilding process which we knew we would have to do after Paul and them left.
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Considering this is only the fifth losing season Illinois has had since Lou Henson took over I don't think that's very impressive. Also, his second year he brought in Leron Black (#48 RSCI) and Michael Fine (3 star). He's recruiting success so far has pretty much been in line with what Weber was bringing in towards that latter part of his Illinois tenure, and that was always considered Weber's weakness and Groce's strength. Getting a PG shouldn't be considered a major accomplishment, it should be a pretty common thing (even though it hasn't been a Illinois for quite a while). Also, while I'm obviously rooting for Lucas to be great, the truth is he's a 3 star recruit. I would love it if he is underrated, but I've heard that about to many Illinois recruits to count, that turned out to be rates right where they should be. Also, I like the '17 recruits so far, but again it's not really "program-changing" players that we have committed so far.
 
#254      
BananaShampoo
GBPillini said:
I don't think it's the be-all, end-all, but it does show a pretty significant negative trend over Groce's tenure. I just don't see what he has accomplished at Illinois that show's he any better than other failed P5 hires.
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I'd argue that but for not having a healthy team this season, we'd already being an upslope on that trend of Groce's tenure. With a healthy Abrams, Thorne, Nunn (for the full season), and Black I'm confident this team would have beaten teams like Providence, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Wiscy, and Penn St both times and we'd have ended up with something closer to 23 wins heading into the NCAA tourney, likely ending up with a 7-9 seed and feeling pretty confident going into next season with our best players as seniors and a great group of sophs. Yes, we'd be arguing about how TJL was going to pick up the slack for Abrams being gone and what big man was going to replace the production of Thorne, but we'd all be in a much happier spot. Sadly, our rebuild got delayed for a year and not making the tourney allowed a couple players to be stupid...and here we are (because Illinois basketball).
 
#255      
GBPillini
AutoPoster 3000 said:
Am I crazy or is pretty much every CBS Chicago article about Illinois athletics built around the thesis statement, "An increasing number of influential boosters and trustees want (____ fired), sources tell 670 The Score."

Talk to me when you get to "An increasing number of influential boosters and trustees want (____ fired) and are willing to pay whatever is needed for his replacement, sources tell 670 The Score." I'm sure a lot of influential people wanted Cubit fired but it wasn't happening until someone starting writing those influential checks.
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Pretty much. I'm pretty sure Bernstein has one source that's a booster that just wants everyone fired.
 
#256      
Second and Chalmers
drwillini said:
First let me say that I am OK with Coach Groce having another year, but I think his seat needs to be warm enough that he changes some things, and I am not seeing that. He needs to shake up the staff - big time.
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The basketball staff should be absolutely the choice of the head coach with no interference whatsoever. This concept of "forced staff changes" from the administrative level is a muddled action for action's sake that causes more problems than it solves.

Groce's seat is a five-alarm fire. He knows this. If he believes his current staff is his best chance of pulling a rabbit out of his hat and saving his job, that should be Groce's call and no one else's.
 
#258      
GBPillini
BananaShampoo said:
I'd argue that but for not having a healthy team this season, we'd already being an upslope on that trend of Groce's tenure. With a healthy Abrams, Thorne, Nunn (for the full season), and Black I'm confident this team would have beaten teams like Providence, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Wiscy, and Penn St both times and we'd have ended up with something closer to 23 wins heading into the NCAA tourney, likely ending up with a 7-9 seed and feeling pretty confident going into next season with our best players as seniors and a great group of sophs. Yes, we'd be arguing about how TJL was going to pick up the slack for Abrams being gone and what big man was going to replace the production of Thorne, but we'd all be in a much happier spot. Sadly, our rebuild got delayed for a year and not making the tourney allowed a couple players to be stupid...and here we are (because Illinois basketball).
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The bolded is how I felt last year could have been with Rice and Egwu as seniors and Nunn and Hill as sophs. Add in a freshman Black, I thought there was reason to be optimistic. Then of course that team failed to make the tournament. Fast forward to this year, and take out the injuries I'm sure this team would have been better. Not sure 10 wins better give what we've seen of Groce's coaching, but it's possible. While Groce was unlucky with the injuries, with the arrests now and all the uncertainty, I just don't see this great rebuild ever really taking off - some of it through his own faults and some through unluckiness. But it is what it is, and I hope I'm wrong.
 
#259      
drwillini
Sorry guys, didn't mean to imply that the changes should be forced. Hoping that Coach Groce himself could realize that he needs to change some things. I REALLY don't think all of our issues rely on not being able to recruit a point guard. Part of it for sure, but even that is the part that is supposed to be his forte, so I am OK with assuming that will be fixed.

2 offensive rebounds in an entire game. Sorry, that one sticks in my craw.
 
#260      
HoustonIllini
GBPillini said:
The bolded is how I felt last year could have been with Rice and Egwu as seniors and Nunn and Hill as sophs. Add in a freshman Black, I thought there was reason to be optimistic. Then of course that team failed to make the tournament. Fast forward to this year, and take out the injuries I'm sure this team would have been better. Not sure 10 wins better give what we've seen of Groce's coaching, but it's possible. While Groce was unlucky with the injuries, with the arrests now and all the uncertainty, I just don't see this great rebuild ever really taking off - some of it through his own faults and some through unluckiness. But it is what it is, and I hope I'm wrong.
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I'm not sure I saw last year's team as a tournament team. We were one dimensional offensively, and middle of the pack defensively (I'm being generous here). While Hill and Nunn showed flashes of what is to be, Rice carried this team on his shoulders. After Rice - there was little to no offense, and while a defensive force in the middle, Egwu didn't add much on the offensive end. Any expectations we had of a tourney berth were . . . well . . . Illini pipe dreams.

People use the word "excuse" for describing the injury situation this year, when it's actually "fact" - we lost 60% of our starting lineup for most of the season. Try and spin it anyway you want, and nobody could get much more from the lineup we had.

Like others, I see next year as the make or break year for Groce, and I'm optimistic, for all the reasons highlight by others in this thread. I don't see Tracy as the savior for the program, but more as an inspiration for the rest of the team - whatever we can get from him is a bonus.

I'm excited for the continued advancement I saw from Finke, JCL, and most of all . . .drum roll please . . . . Maverick. If he continues his present trajectory, I think we could see All BIG honors next year. I think Coach Groce has done a great job developing these youngsters, to the point where getting them minutes is going to be an issue next year - a good problem to have. And the pipeline is starting to look better and better, boding well for our Illini.

I'm willing to wait until next year to throw my thumb up or down . . .:illinois:
 
#261      
Johnny Lawrence
Second and Chalmers said:
The basketball staff should be absolutely the choice of the head coach with no interference whatsoever. This concept of "forced staff changes" from the administrative level is a muddled action for action's sake that causes more problems than it solves.

Groce's seat is a five-alarm fire. He knows this. If he believes his current staff is his best chance of pulling a rabbit out of his hat and saving his job, that should be Groce's call and no one else's.
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I absolutely agree with this.
 
#262      
illini8507
GBPillini said:
The bolded is how I felt last year could have been with Rice and Egwu as seniors and Nunn and Hill as sophs. Add in a freshman Black, I thought there was reason to be optimistic. Then of course that team failed to make the tournament. Fast forward to this year, and take out the injuries I'm sure this team would have been better. Not sure 10 wins better give what we've seen of Groce's coaching, but it's possible. While Groce was unlucky with the injuries, with the arrests now and all the uncertainty, I just don't see this great rebuild ever really taking off - some of it through his own faults and some through unluckiness. But it is what it is, and I hope I'm wrong.
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That team failed to make the tournament because it's senior starting pg went down for the season before it began, and it's best player missed like 5 weeks right in the middle of the B1G season with a broken hand (or was it wrist?) Cosby and Paul were also busts, but I'm perfectly fine laying those 2 on Groce.

Even so, we were only a game or 2 away from making the dance.
 
#263      
illini80
I'm surprised many forget how valuable Egwu was on the defensive end after the endless parade of layups this team gave up. He may have only averaged 7 points, but his blocks and rebounds saved more points than our 5 position contributed this season.
 
#264      
illini80
illini8507 said:
That team failed to make the tournament because it's senior starting pg went down for the season before it began, and it's best player missed like 5 weeks right in the middle of the B1G season with a broken hand (or was it wrist?) Cosby and Paul were also busts, but I'm perfectly fine laying those 2 on Groce.

Even so, we were only a game or 2 away from making the dance.
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They were 6-3 during the stretch without Rice and arguably played their best basketball of the season.
 
#265      
Foggy Notion
illini80 said:
They were 6-3 during the stretch without Rice and arguably played their best basketball of the season.
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That's like people saying the Clippers are better without Blake Griffin. They may have had a good run without him, but eventually the absence of a top player catches up to you.
 
#266      
miggytorres
Second and Chalmers said:
The basketball staff should be absolutely the choice of the head coach with no interference whatsoever. This concept of "forced staff changes" from the administrative level is a muddled action for action's sake that causes more problems than it solves.

Groce's seat is a five-alarm fire. He knows this. If he believes his current staff is his best chance of pulling a rabbit out of his hat and saving his job, that should be Groce's call and no one else's.
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Completely agree with both statements.

Unfortunately, I'm skeptical he grabs the rabbit without at least one staffing change that is a savvy, older vet. Too much of the same from this bunch, need a new perspective. I'll be very happy if Groce proves me wrong.
 
#267      
dsboyce
illini80 said:
I'm surprised many forget how valuable Egwu was on the defensive end after the endless parade of layups this team gave up. He may have only averaged 7 points, but his blocks and rebounds saved more points than our 5 position contributed this season.
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They aren't forgetting, they never gave him his dues to begin with. Even as opposing coaches were singing the praises of Egwu this board was denouncing him. Most of the people on this board don't know nearly as much about basketball as they think they do.
 
#268      
bombayIllini
GBPillini said:
The original question was who was "unquestionably a downgrade" compared to Groce. Not saying I would hire any one these coaches, but I also wouldn't hire Goce. Also Danny Manning took over a Wake Forest team that wasn't good (#118 in Kenpom the year before he was hired), and is currently sitting at 127. Groce took a team from 82 to 133. Again, how is that "unquestionably a downgrade"?
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Same time frame Ohio state went from 2 to 79.
 
#270      
OrangeDeeLight
illini80 said:
I'm surprised many forget how valuable Egwu was on the defensive end after the endless parade of layups this team gave up. .
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My head was too clouded with thinking of the parade of layups (just as much) we had last year "with" NE.
 
#271      
freebird6
Gomers Pile said:
I have never bought into the thinking Illinois has no offensive sets . In fact quite the opposite , last nights games had almost zero set plays or set plays that were ran . The lack of a at least below average point guard makes it seem that way though . Open passes were missed by the hundreds by our point guards . Get a point in here you'll notice it . Unless you're into the Groce has to go attitude you just refuse to.
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Bingo. The offence is over scripted at this point. The Iowa game had almost zero decision making as all the sets/plays were called from the sideline. The personnel situation has forced the scripting of the sets and BBIQ to be put in the can for now. Because the team is playing shorthanded and with obvious personnel (injuries/recruiting) deficits they have had to rework the offence to something not even resembling what I am familiar with or have seen in his past as an asst or HC. There are a good many schools that run the same offensive sets that folks here have referenced not knowing that the scheme is the same but is not executed as well...yes part because of BBIQ and a lot more d/t personnel. Good recognition.
 
#272      
illini80
Foggy Notion said:
That's like people saying the Clippers are better without Blake Griffin. They may have had a good run without him, but eventually the absence of a top player catches up to you.
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No it's not. I was responding to the comment that we may have missed the tourney because of Rice missing games. In fact they played together as a team better without him. It doesn't mean he wasn't the best player on the team, but that stretch is not what cost them a bid.
 
#273      
illini80
OrangeDeeLight said:
My head was too clouded with thinking of the parade of layups (just as much) we had last year "with" NE.
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I'd like to see the stats on that one. I assume someone keeps them, but I don't know who it would be. Regardless, it's off topic and doesn't belong in this thread so I'm dropping it.
 
#274      
Dayman
I felt bad for groce in the press conference. To me, it had the feel of a kid who broke the neighbors window being taken back over by the parent to apologize and explain that he will try better and it won't happen again.he looked very uncomfortable, and rightly so. I almost wonder if JW didn't have two motivations. One, to provide stability in recruiting bypretrnding toback the coach, and to simultaneously embarrasses groce to get him to resign. He can act like he works with his coaches through difficult times but at the same time push the current coach Out the door with a humiliating press conference. Has anyone ever seen a similar press conference?i have not.

I did like the talk of choices. I have great parents who raised me right and I made some stupid decisions that fortunately I got away with. Nothing like harming a female mind you, but my point is a coach and parent cannot control everything youngsters under their charge do.
 
#275      
illinifan87
AutoPoster 3000 said:
Am I crazy or is pretty much every CBS Chicago article about Illinois athletics built around the thesis statement, "An increasing number of influential boosters and trustees want (____ fired), sources tell 670 The Score."

Talk to me when you get to "An increasing number of influential boosters and trustees want (____ fired) and are willing to pay whatever is needed for his replacement, sources tell 670 The Score." I'm sure a lot of influential people wanted Cubit fired but it wasn't happening until someone starting writing those influential checks.
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I mean it's not rocket science to figure out what's going on by reading the tea leaves and listening to Whitman.

Bernstein just likes to show how smart he is all the time and using 'influential people tell my source' is a way for him to do this.

Whitman has to keep Groce because he doesn't have his replacement lined up. So Groce has one year to turn it around or he's gone.
 
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