I am curious about sample sizes. Can you provide a link to where I can read more about the widely accepted sample of 750?
thesportjournal.org
"Every transfer...the lone exception." So not every transfer then?Every transfer we've had over the last 2 season has experienced a significant 3pt% dip in their first season after arriving.
Ben Humrichous - 41% down to 34%
Kylan Bowell - 38% down to 24%
Andrej Stojakovic - 32% down to 24%
Zvonimir Ivisic - 38% down to 28%
Even Jake Davis was 39% at Mercer and down to 34% his first year at IL.
*The lone exception to this is Tre White
Seeing Vaaks at 35% while shooting 8.4 threes per game, I absolutely thought 37% on 6.5 would be a realistic yardstick. Better percentage = less volume and better shots.
But our recent history makes me temper expectations.
This#1 - you made the number of threes part of the criteria, not me.
#2 - Why do you think Zens can't register an appearance in 28 games? Like, you do realize most of that is spot minutes and garbage time right?
2021 Co-Hawk played for 10+ minutes in just 6 games, and played less than 5 minutes in 10.
2022 Goode played 10+ in 9 games and less than 5 in 4. But also remember, he was #8 on that team, and basically #7 for the half the season Curbelo was out with injuries. The actual #9 on that team is probably either BBV, Payne, or Melendez who all played a lot less than Goode.
In 2023 Ty Rodgers ended up #7 in minutes. He was a solid part of the rotation. Not sure why we're counting him as the #9thman
2024 DGL got some solid minutes in November against a bunch of Q4s, and then played 10+ minutes exactly three more times, all in blowouts. He had 12 games with less than 5 minutes. (BTW, Freshman DGL was also bad. .395 eFG%, 1:1 assist/turnover ratio, bad defense, box plus/minus of -4.1).
2025 Jake - I agree he is the 9th man that ZZ probably can't replicate. But the flipside of that team was the lack of experience further up the roster. I think I'd happily take the tradeoff of having that experience and proven quality in the 1-8 rotation and being a little weaker on the #9thman
So, with the exception of stepping into the 2nd guy off the bench role like Ty did in 2023, or being 2025 Jake, why do you not think ZZ can be every bit as impactful as those other guys?
ThisWhat you're not grasping as part of the major issue is that NIL and the portal have changed the ability to get the kind of player you, specifically you, want.
DGL - Transferred out
Ty - Transferred out
Luke - Transferred out
Petro - Transferred out
Booth - Transferred out
Lee - Transferred out
Lieb - Transferred out
Podz - Transferred out
These guys don't want to be the 7th man, much less the 9th man. There are just too many other opportunities out there. Ty and DGL went to the Mountain West to get their minutes. Lee, Podz and Lieb went to mid majors. They want significant minutes.
You want a proven commodity to come in and give you a guaranteed, quality, 8 to 10 minutes. Why come here when you can go somewhere else and start AND get paid more?
Davis came in from Mercer, didn't look like much at first, but he was fine with his role. If he would have sat last year and only got spot minutes, would he be back?
I have news for you. If Morillo and/or ZZ get iced out, they'll transfer out too unless they fully understand that being a rotational guy on the back end would be the role. Given the roster make up, a LOT has to happen for them to crack a rotation. Playing time and money matters. We're in a different world where the players have unlimited options because they can transfer unlimited times.
I don't know about others, but I sometimes forget our players from the recent past. It's probably due to the transfer portal, witth guys coming and going so rapidly. Either that or simply old age.Every transfer we've had over the last 2 season has experienced a significant 3pt% dip in their first season after arriving.
Ben Humrichous - 41% down to 34%
Kylan Bowell - 38% down to 24%
Andrej Stojakovic - 32% down to 24%
Zvonimir Ivisic - 38% down to 28%
Even Jake Davis was 39% at Mercer and down to 34% his first year at IL.
*The lone exception to this is Tre White
Seeing Vaaks at 35% while shooting 8.4 threes per game, I absolutely thought 37% on 6.5 would be a realistic yardstick. Better percentage = less volume and better shots.
But our recent history makes me temper expectations.
I completely agree on your point about sample size, but I disagree that it is applied per-player. On the whole, all our transfers shot 666-1856 (35.9%) in their year prior to Illinois and 534-1630 (32.8%) in their first year at Illinois, so the aggregated sample sizes are sufficient (and the decreased % wasn't obviously due to increased volume).Here's the full sample:
View attachment 50478
I think with nearly half of them jumping up a level in play, might explain the 1% difference overall
Editing to add that actually none of these are reliable samples. Its widely accepted that 750 attempts is where a 3 point shooter's percentage fully stabilizes statistically.
I completely agree on your point about sample size, but I disagree that it is applied per-player. On the whole, all our transfers shot 666-1856 (35.9%) in their year prior to Illinois and 534-1630 (32.8%) in their first year at Illinois, so the aggregated sample sizes are sufficient (and the decreased % wasn't obviously due to increased volume).
Also, while that doesn't confirm a change in their "baseline" skill since the results are highly dependent on the context of the two seasons for each player (especially shot difficulty), we don't ultimately care about players' baseline skill. We care about how they shoot in our system, however that my inflate or deflate their %.
But we still can't apply this trend with certainty to player X, since any individual player had a very low sample size in 3pt attempts last year, their context may change in dramatically different ways than the aggregate of our prior transfers, etc.
The Illini have only had 4 players reach 750 3 point attempts in their career (Frazier, Bradford, Brown, Richardson,) so I am unconvinced that it is a usable bar to clear.I am curious about sample sizes. Can you provide a link to where I can read more about the widely accepted sample of 750?
If I take out the five who moved up (Humrichous, Davis, Domask, Harmon, and Grandison), the others were 403-1156 (34.9%) the year before, and 370-1134 (32.6%) their first year here. Their roles may still have been different.If someone forced me to read into the differences:
Grandison: was focal point of defenses at Holy Cross as their leading scorer, at Illinois a catch-and-shoot 3 & D player
Guerrier: likely just variance, role was similar at Illinois as it was at Syracuse & Oregon
Domask: early season shooting slump + jump up in competition level
Boswell: no clue here, he shot 38% at Arizona... I know they used him differently
Humrichous: big variance (ie, not really a 41% guy just had good variance at Evansville) + jump up in comp
White: increased 4.3%, probably variance
Davis: jump in comp (though he shot significantly higher % this year than he did at Mercer)
Stojakovic: variance + sample size (again, all these players suffer from it to some degree)
Ivisic: late season slump tanked his %
But I can't bring myself to use "Illinois 3 point shooting is cursed" as a feasible explanation for any of it, especially considering the overall difference is negligible and likely explained by nearly half of the players moving up from low/mid-major to B1G.
I agree with this, but I think the problem is when using it as a predictive measure. If you can't come up with some reasonable (and univerally applicable) explanation for why a decreased 3pt% exists in the aggregate, I do not think it has any predictive value when it comes to future transfers. Otherwise, it's just a case of some players' average goes up, some players' average goes down, and in this small sample size we've just happened to have more go down than up so the numbers are down in aggregate.I completely agree on your point about sample size, but I disagree that it is applied per-player. On the whole, all our transfers shot 666-1856 (35.9%) in their year prior to Illinois and 534-1630 (32.8%) in their first year at Illinois, so the aggregated sample sizes are sufficient (and the decreased % wasn't obviously due to increased volume).
Also, while that doesn't confirm a change in their "baseline" skill since the results are highly dependent on the context of the two seasons for each player (especially shot difficulty), we don't ultimately care about players' baseline skill. We care about how they shoot in our system, however that my inflate or deflate their %.
But we still can't apply this trend with certainty to player X, since any individual player had a very low sample size in 3pt attempts last year, their context may change in dramatically different ways than the aggregate of our prior transfers, etc.
I agree with this, but I think the problem is when using it as a predictive measure. If you can't come up with some reasonable (and univerally applicable) explanation for why a decreased 3pt% exists in the aggregate, I do not think it has any predictive value when it comes to future transfers. Otherwise, it's just a case of some players' average goes up, some players' average goes down, and in this small sample size we've just happened to have more go down than up so the numbers are down in aggregate.
Keaton made 2.4 and Shannon made 2.4I'd like to see Vaaks match Keaton's 2.4 made threes per game. I don't think he'll shoot Keaton's percentage, but he'll likely take more attempts.
None at all? I agree that it can't be applied to any individual future transfer, but ~1600 attempts seems meaningful for future transfers in aggregate.I agree with this, but I think the problem is when using it as a predictive measure. If you can't come up with some reasonable (and univerally applicable) explanation for why a decreased 3pt% exists in the aggregate, I do not think it has any predictive value when it comes to future transfers. Otherwise, it's just a case of some players' average goes up, some players' average goes down, and in this small sample size we've just happened to have more go down than up so the numbers are down in aggregate.
So, we've never had a bad shooter at Illinois. We've only had good shooters and shooters who did not shoot enough.The Illini have only had 4 players reach 750 3 point attempts in their career (Frazier, Bradford, Brown, Richardson,) so I am unconvinced that it is a usable bar to clear.
If I take out the five who moved up (Humrichous, Davis, Domask, Harmon, and Grandison), the others were 403-1156 (34.9%) the year before, and 370-1134 (32.6%) their first year here. Their roles may still have been different.
The five who did move up were 236-700 (37.6%) the year before, and 164-496 (33.1%) the year after, but those sample sizes are on the small side.
Yes, we can't rule that out for sure. For the # of attempts and difference in shooting percentages, there is an ~85% chance that the prior year 3pt% was indeed "better" (meaning not just due to variance). But some of that 85% includes possibilities that they were actually closer than the % ended up at (just as it includes possibilities that they were actually further apart).And variance
Yes, we can't rule that out for sure. For the # of attempts and difference in shooting percentages, there is an ~85% chance that the prior year 3pt% was indeed "better" (meaning not just due to variance). But some of that 85% includes possibilities that they were actually closer than the % ended up at (just as it includes possibilities that they were actually further apart).
I made a mistake in these calculations. They should be:None at all? I agree that it can't be applied to any individual future transfer, but ~1600 attempts seems meaningful for future transfers in aggregate.
Year-by-year comparisons are obviously much more prone to sample size and context issues, but they are interesting to compare with Illinois' team 3pt attempt rates:
Season | Transfers' aggregate 3pt% change from prior year | Team 3pt attempt rate
2020-21 | +3.6% | 30.0
2022-23 | -1.0% | 41.9
2023-24 | -1.8% | 38.6
2024-25 | -2.4% | 47.2
2025-26 | -3.6% | 49.7
3pt attempt rate does not necessarily correlate with shot quality since a well-designed offense with lots of skilled players can generate lots of good looks. But it could imply a change in style for incoming transfers that requires some adjustment. Just a thought.
I made a mistake in these calculations. They should be:
Season | Transfers' aggregate 3pt% change from prior year | Team 3pt attempt rate
2020-21 | +3.6% | 30.0
2022-23 | -2.1% | 41.9
2023-24 | -1.9% | 38.6
2024-25 | -6.2% | 47.2
2025-26 | -8.3% | 49.7
Or, if you want to exclude players coming from non-power conferences:
Season | Transfers' aggregate 3pt% change from prior year | Team 3pt attempt rate
2020-21 | +2.5% | 30.0 |
2022-23 | -2.1% | 41.9
2023-24 | +2.7% | 38.6
2024-25 | -6.7% | 47.2
2025-26 | -8.3% | 49.7
These look even more correlated with our 3pt attempt rate except for 2023-24. And while the sample sizes are small, some of the differences are large enough to still be meaningful. For this past season, there's an 87% chance that the difference isn't due to variance, and 88% for the prior year's class. There's only a 60% chance that variance doesn't explain why the 2023-24 transfers shot better.
If you take out all the guys who jumped a level and Boswell, then they were 34.3% before transferring and 33.8% after. But I don't think we should ignore Boswell just as we shouldn't blow his % out of proportion. We're talking about a 2.3% difference even with him.Tongue-in-cheek on my Boswell comments, but he is the difference-maker here in the discrepancy. I think you're really close to that 34.9% number without him.
And without the statistical deep-dive, I'd have leaned that way anyhow. How does a 38% shooter across multiple seasons become a 27% shooter?
Problem solved? Kylan Boswell = "Illinois 3 point curse"