Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (January-March 2016)

[ILL in IA]

Drug/alcohol problems...The younger Paul

I know. And I always liked Webber as a guy, that was one thing I couldn't get past. It is also something I will give Groce credit for. A lot of coaches needing Paul to produce on the court could have overlooked the Europe problems and made sure word didn't get out back home. He has stuck to his morals from what I can tell.

 

[whovous]

Missing out on Froling ranks as one of our lesser recruiting defeats in my book.

While he would have been a nice get, Froling was not going to solve our center problem. His size and skills are similar to Finke's. It would be great to have two tall, young stretch 4's on the same team, but we would still be playing one of them out of position at the 5.

 

[ssanti13]

We really figure out all kinds of ways to lose out on recruits....

Unless I'm mistaken, that was our last chance at filling a HUGE need of a big in this class. I guess we're rolling with Mav/Finke/LB.

Would have been interesting to land him, but Froling will be a stretch 4/pick-pop guy. We already have that in Finke. We need a true center, and I'm sure that will be a 5th year transfer for us next year.

I'm not crazy about transfers, but I think transfer bigs are fine. Looking at our history with transfers, I always felt transfers bigs have a lower propensity to mess with team chemistry than say, a 5th year transfer guard tossed into our backcourt (think Cosby, Starks, even Rice to an extent). On the other hand, guys like McLaurin, Ekey and Thorne have been welcomed additions. Paul was an anomaly.

A 5th year big also gives us someone with more physical maturity having 4 years of a strength/conditioning program under their belt, which is crucial for making an immediate impact in our front court.

 

[ILL in IA]

Would have been interesting to land him, but Froling will be a stretch 4/pick-pop guy. We already have that in Finke. We need a true center, and I'm sure that will be a 5th year transfer for us next year.

I'm not crazy about transfers, but I think transfer bigs are fine. Looking at our history with transfers, I always felt transfers bigs have a lower propensity to mess with team chemistry than say, a 5th year transfer guard tossed into our backcourt (think Cosby, Starks, even Rice to an extent). On the other hand, guys like McLaurin, Ekey and Thorne have been welcomed additions. Paul was an anomaly.

A 5th year big also gives us someone with more physical maturity having 4 years of a strength/conditioning program under their belt, which is crucial for making an immediate impact in our front court.

I think a lot of the 5th year guys have worked out because they come to UI, start playing ball and have less time to get into trouble. All of the transfers who have gotten into any sort of issue all had a sit out year. A lot of time on their hands to go out and find some trouble/get bad habits.

 

[DeadIShooter]

Would have been interesting to land him, but Froling will be a stretch 4/pick-pop guy. We already have that in Finke. We need a true center, and I'm sure that will be a 5th year transfer for us next year.

I'm not crazy about transfers, but I think transfer bigs are fine. Looking at our history with transfers, I always felt transfers bigs have a lower propensity to mess with team chemistry than say, a 5th year transfer guard tossed into our backcourt (think Cosby, Starks, even Rice to an extent). On the other hand, guys like McLaurin, Ekey and Thorne have been welcomed additions. Paul was an anomaly.

A 5th year big also gives us someone with more physical maturity having 4 years of a strength/conditioning program under their belt, which is crucial for making an immediate impact in our front court.

Half the teams in America want a 5th year true center. Those guys are few and far between and hard to get on top of that.

 

[Obelix]

Missing out on Froling ranks as one of our lesser recruiting defeats in my book.

While he would have been a nice get, Froling was not going to solve our center problem. His size and skills are similar to Finke's. It would be great to have two tall, young stretch 4's on the same team, but we would still be playing one of them out of position at the 5.

Froling is a pretty big loss as far as need. No doubt about that. He may not be a true 5, but from the little I have seen him in highlights (I have not seen him in person), he seems to have stronger post moves than Finke. Definitely looked like someone who would have contributed in the rotation next year. Some people on this aboard have high expectations for 5th year transfers, but I personally do not think we can do better than Froling in the 5th year market.

The reason that fans are not that disappointed about Froling is not lack of need, or abilities, or quality of the recruit. But more the fact that nobody really though we had a chance of actually getting Froling to begin with. He would have been a great get.

 

[491illinois]

Eerily similar, substitute Richmond and Head above and you've got the same thing (kind of) with Weber.

Remember the 4 year hype that surrounded the "second coming" of Jereme Richmond. That is a painful memory. Neither his skills nor character met expectations. One should be able to better predict the potential performance of transfers with a track record. With the exception of Rice, that has not really been the case here.

 

[Tevo]

Froling is a pretty big loss as far as need. No doubt about that. He may not be a true 5, but from the little I have seen him in highlights (I have not seen him in person), he seems to have stronger post moves than Finke. Definitely looked like someone who would have contributed in the rotation next year. Some people on this aboard have high expectations for 5th year transfers, but I personally do not think we can do better than Froling in the 5th year market.

The reason that fans are not that disappointed about Froling is not lack of need, or abilities, or quality of the recruit. But more the fact that nobody really though we had a chance of actually getting Froling to begin with. He would have been a great get.

Agree with this. We don't need a "true center" -- we need guys who can guard a center when needed, or post-up when needed. Froling at least could have done the latter. Defense, who knows? But a big body, a smart player, good shooting touch, good post moves. That seems to be EXACTLY what we need, with only "rim protector" as the possible missing attribute.

 

[chiefinillini7]

Froling was the least of our worries. We need another 17 commitment fast! I wish Big Mike was still gonna be here next year, but we will be alright up front with Leron back

 

[Obelix]

Remember the 4 year hype that surrounded the "second coming" of Jereme Richmond. That is a painful memory. Neither his skills nor character met expectations. One should be able to better predict the potential performance of transfers with a track record. With the exception of Rice, that has not really been the case here.

Are you talking about Paul or Richmond? Richmond's skills were hardly a problem, the kid had great skills and potential and showed it even in his little time here. The rest of his personality and character were significant issues.

Paul never had the same level of expectations, and we never got to see his skills on the floor. I understand the family connection, but in retrospect, it was a bad decision to waste so much time on him until strike 4 to move on.

 

[Greensboro]

Froling is a pretty big loss as far as need. No doubt about that. He may not be a true 5, but from the little I have seen him in highlights (I have not seen him in person), he seems to have stronger post moves than Finke. Definitely looked like someone who would have contributed in the rotation next year. Some people on this aboard have high expectations for 5th year transfers, but I personally do not think we can do better than Froling in the 5th year market.

The reason that fans are not that disappointed about Froling is not lack of need, or abilities, or quality of the recruit. But more the fact that nobody really though we had a chance of actually getting Froling to begin with. He would have been a great get.

+1...we might get lucky again with a 5th year, but I would take Froling all day/every day; bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush,
...Froling helps for the next 4 years... a 5th year senior & then we lose Mav next year as well so we are replacing 2 Bigs in 2017 & we are still down a big (Paul) from where we would like to be. So even if you roll the dice on 5th year transfer, it pushes the problem out a year at best.
...Plus I think Frohling/Finke are both better at 5 with another 6'10" guy on the floor, makes a 4 cover one of them underneath 2 chances to develop a 5

 

[Obelix]

We don't need a "true center"

I think we do need a true center. We should have gotten one or more (of better quality than what we have) in the last 4 years. Problem is that 2016 is really gone, and expecting to hit gold in 5th year market may prove fool's gold. So in terms of surrogate options, Froling looked really good.

 

[bleedsorangenblue]

People keep talking about recruiting misses here and placing the blame all on Groce. While of course the blame goes to Groce since he is head dog, the fact remains that until the product on the floor looks a heck of a lot better, Illinois is going to continue to miss on top-level recruits. It really is a chicken/egg type of argument. People keep bemoaning the fact that we can't compete until we have top recruits seldom seem to acknowledge that the rebuilding project that is the state of the program has a lot to do with how well we can recruit. A little luck and some time for development will go a long way toward solving this problem. I think the program is on the verge of breaking through but people have to have some patience to see it through.

 

[ssanti13]

+1...we might get lucky again with a 5th year, but I would take Froling all day/every day; bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush,
...Froling helps for the next 4 years... a 5th year senior & then we lose Mav next year as well so we are replacing 2 Bigs in 2017 & we are still down a big (Paul) from where we would like to be. So even if you roll the dice on 5th year transfer, it pushes the problem out a year at best.
...Plus I think Frohling/Finke are both better at 5 with another 6'10" guy on the floor, makes a 4 cover one of them underneath 2 chances to develop a 5

This is valid, but I'm not sold on Froling being an impact player in our front court next year. Maybe not for a couple years potentially. I don't care how good he is in the post, it means absolutely nothing if he isn't strong, athletic, quick or can physically assert himself down low. I guarantee Froling would be a defensive liability down low next year in the Big10 and we'd be seeing a lot of the same issues.

 

[Greensboro]

Remember the 4 year hype that surrounded the "second coming" of Jereme Richmond. That is a painful memory. Neither his skills nor character met expectations. One should be able to better predict the potential performance of transfers with a track record. With the exception of Rice, that has not really been the case here.

I'm not sure it has been that bad to reasonable expectations;Cosby severely under performed, I think Starks is what we should have expected (he was supposed to be a free last minute fill of an empty scholarship), Paul is a wild card because he failed off the court. I would say McLaurin & Ekey were solid compared to expectations & Thorne's performance to date we should be happy with...we still take him if you told us he had to sit out the middle of the year with a knee injury & you certainly don't throw the injury in the same category as Cosby/Paul.

 

[frozenrope9190]

People keep talking about recruiting misses here and placing the blame all on Groce. While of course the blame goes to Groce since he is head dog, the fact remains that until the product on the floor looks a heck of a lot better, Illinois is going to continue to miss on top-level recruits. It really is a chicken/egg type of argument. People keep bemoaning the fact that we can't compete until we have top recruits seldom seem to acknowledge that the rebuilding project that is the state of the program has a lot to do with how well we can recruit. A little luck and some time for development will go a long way toward solving this problem. I think the program is on the verge of breaking through but people have to have some patience to see it through.

This.

 

[Greensboro]

This is valid, but I'm not sold on Froling being an impact player in our front court next year. Maybe not for a couple years potentially. I don't care how good he is in the post, it means absolutely nothing if he isn't strong, athletic, quick or can physically assert himself down low. I guarantee Froling would be a defensive liability down low next year in the Big10 and we'd be seeing a lot of the same issues.

I think this is fair as well to have modest expectations for a freshman big, but after watching us play this year with only Mav & Finke, then adding Black back I will take my chances with Froling... We have gotten lucky in the big market with Thorne & even McLaurin, i don't think we can expect to do that well again. Also even if you take Froling there is a fair chance someone leaves & you still can play the 5th year game at the end of the season.

 

[Foggy Notion]

I think this is fair as well to have modest expectations for a freshman big, but after watching us play this year with only Mav & Finke, then adding Black back I will take my chances with Froling... We have gotten lucky in the big market with Thorne & even McLaurin, i don't think we can expect to do that well again. Also even if you take Froling there is a fair chance someone leaves & you still can play the 5th year game at the end of the season.

No one has said that they wouldn't take Frolling. Our chances of landing a fifth-year center are much higher than landing Frolling, who already committed to a different school.

 

[Foggy Notion]

People keep talking about recruiting misses here and placing the blame all on Groce. While of course the blame goes to Groce since he is head dog, the fact remains that until the product on the floor looks a heck of a lot better, Illinois is going to continue to miss on top-level recruits. It really is a chicken/egg type of argument. People keep bemoaning the fact that we can't compete until we have top recruits seldom seem to acknowledge that the rebuilding project that is the state of the program has a lot to do with how well we can recruit. A little luck and some time for development will go a long way toward solving this problem. I think the program is on the verge of breaking through but people have to have some patience to see it through.

Agree.

 

[Cubby Blue]

People keep talking about recruiting misses here and placing the blame all on Groce. While of course the blame goes to Groce since he is head dog, the fact remains that until the product on the floor looks a heck of a lot better, Illinois is going to continue to miss on top-level recruits. It really is a chicken/egg type of argument. People keep bemoaning the fact that we can't compete until we have top recruits seldom seem to acknowledge that the rebuilding project that is the state of the program has a lot to do with how well we can recruit. A little luck and some time for development will go a long way toward solving this problem. I think the program is on the verge of breaking through but people have to have some patience to see it through.

Patience is a Virtue. And virtually non existent when it comes to fan forums.

 

[Greensboro]

People keep talking about recruiting misses here and placing the blame all on Groce. While of course the blame goes to Groce since he is head dog, the fact remains that until the product on the floor looks a heck of a lot better, Illinois is going to continue to miss on top-level recruits. It really is a chicken/egg type of argument. People keep bemoaning the fact that we can't compete until we have top recruits seldom seem to acknowledge that the rebuilding project that is the state of the program has a lot to do with how well we can recruit. A little luck and some time for development will go a long way toward solving this problem. I think the program is on the verge of breaking through but people have to have some patience to see it through.

Sure wins would help, but I think this over simplifies the situation. We have recruited 2-4 just fine despite the record...As Obelix likes to tell us it is missing at 1 & 5. If our recruiting was balanced we would be ok. In Groce's first 3 classes he took only Tate as a pg, he took only Mav & maybe Austin at 5 & we were already in a hole at both positions with the 2011 class departures we were left with only Egwu and Tracy. Personally, I think Tate/mav/Colbert were the best available options as late in the game as Groce was hired for the class and would have been fine if we filled in behind them. We badly needed another pg to replace Tracy, we shot for the moon in Jackson, Snider, Brunson, & Evans, if TJL came in 2014 or 2015 we would be in much better shape. At 5 Paul was probably the guy to fill the spot but we will never know how that would have turned out on the floor, while we went after Thomas, Bragg, Cliff, Sharma?, ... , but just add one more solid big to Black/Finke and we would be in much better shape.

 

[LuckyLefty8]

Hi all - just wanted to swing by to share some notes I had...given the Frolling announcement I thought it was good timing.

- Frolling was an AZ lean the whole way. Turns out AZ was making him more of a plan B option and that cooled him off on the AZ shot. SMU was his plan B. From everyone I have talked to, no one has a real clue how ILL got the visit/connection, fwiw.

- TJL is an absolute monster. Lots of people kicking themselves over whiffing on this kid. Great get for ILL.

- Lots of rumblings (as always) among the B1G coaching circuit, mostly centered around Groce. John has a LOT of respect, and a lot going for him given his ability to recruit and form relationships. The main issue, and this is like a broken record to me, is that his team & program has yet to form an identity. It's no secret that he's become victim to the injury bug, but unfortunately until he puts everything together on the court, recruits will remain in the friend-zone with Groce & Co. The most common complaint of Groce by recruits and handlers is that they have no idea what portrait John is trying to paint. How can he land a point guard when he's demonstrated four years of lackluster pg play? Good luck grabbing a big man when you haven't had a dominant post game in the better part of a decade. Groce can't even sell a role-player like a knock-down 3 pt specialist like just about every program in the league can.

Just my opinion here, but I think once Groce can get a team in the tourney and win a game or two, the pieces will really fall into place. Until then, no one wants to commit four or five years to an NIT team without a solid identity.

Cheers IL....

 

[Newman]

Froling is a pretty big loss as far as need. No doubt about that. He may not be a true 5, but from the little I have seen him in highlights (I have not seen him in person), he seems to have stronger post moves than Finke. .

Froling is a guy that likes to hang out on the perimeter. His post moves may be a bit stronger than Finke at this point, but I don't see how you can say this is a big loss and at the same time believe that Finke cannot play 5 at this level.

 

[bleedsorangenblue]

We badly needed another pg to replace Tracy, we shot for the moon in Jackson, Snider, Brunson, & Evans, if TJL came in 2014 or 2015 we would be in much better shape. At 5 Paul was probably the guy to fill the spot but we will never know how that would have turned out on the floor, while we went after Thomas, Bragg, Cliff, Sharma?, ... , but just add one more solid big to Black/Finke and we would be in much better shape.

Don't disagree but this is where a little luck would have helped. We thought we had TA for the past two years. We had Snider but we know how that turned out. I am sure that some prospects might have considered us had he not been in the fold. The Paul fiasco was a gamble that did not pay off. There are opportunity costs with everything and there are only so many scholarships. If any of these three players had panned out, we might not be having this conversation. This has all been compounded by the other injuries. How much of the above you can place on Groce is the subject of conjecture here.

 

[Greensboro]

Missing out on Froling ranks as one of our lesser recruiting defeats in my book.

While he would have been a nice get, Froling was not going to solve our center problem. His size and skills are similar to Finke's. It would be great to have two tall, young stretch 4's on the same team, but we would still be playing one of them out of position at the 5.

Would have been interesting to land him, but Froling will be a stretch 4/pick-pop guy. We already have that in Finke. We need a true center, and I'm sure that will be a 5th year transfer for us next year.

A 5th year big also gives us someone with more physical maturity having 4 years of a strength/conditioning program under their belt, which is crucial for making an immediate impact in our front court.

Froling was the least of our worries. We need another 17 commitment fast! I wish Big Mike was still gonna be here next year, but we will be alright up front with Leron back

No one has said that they wouldn't take Frolling. Our chances of landing a fifth-year center are much higher than landing Frolling, who already committed to a different school.

I didn't suggest that people were saying we shouldn't take Froling. But they are downplaying the significance...we need a big in 2016, a 5th year senior pushes the problem out a year x 2 (Add Mav graduating, only Finke/Black left). I also think we won't be as lucky in the 5th year big market this time around (so change your "odds of getting a 5th year transfer" to "getting a 5th year transfer that is at a B1G level/ready". From where I sit our back is against the wall, this was an out, now we are searching deeper for a 2016 big or having to count on a 5th year transfer.

There is also a good chance based on typical dynamics that we lose someone & still have a chance at a 5th year big transfer...so this isn't necessarily an either/or situation.

I'm also not saying I thought we had a good chance at Froling & we should have expected to get him...but "chances" is a separate discussion from "needs". This was an opportunity missed with a huge plus side. We could have been in a much better place & now we are heading to where our only hope is a 5th year transfer, likely for the next 2 years. i don't like those chance either.