St. Louis Cardinals 2021

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#651      

pruman91

pruman91
Paducah, Ky
pruman91
My 92 year old dad was never a MO fan ....he was more of a Walt Jocketty fan ....I asked him why and he said MO acts like his s**t don't stink......Dad always thought that MO didn't do enough at the trade deadline to improve the team and thought the cardinals should have had at least one and possibly 2 more world championship's....

I see his thought process and usually agreed with him.....BTW, he wasn't a Shildt fan at all......

I agree with hermie that something probably was said that MO didn't like so he took his team and went home and left Shildt in his dust.....Big boy politics cost Shildt his job whether he really was stunned about it , as the reports say.....There had to be something brewing behind the scene to make this blow up like it did....

I would expect the next manager to have ties already to the Cardinal Way.....If he doesn't then he better be a quick on the job learner of what it will take to keep his job.....JMHO

edit:........The Carpenter extension was the worst decision that I have seen by the cardinals in a while and that lands directly at MO's feet....Wonder if MO is going to offer Carpenter an incentives based contract....I sure hope not......thanks MC and good luck elsewhere
 
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#652      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
pruman91 said:
edit:........The Carpenter extension was the worst decision that I have seen by the cardinals in a while and that lands directly at MO's feet....Wonder if MO is going to offer Carpenter an incentives based contract....I sure hope not......thanks MC and good luck elsewhere
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To be fair, at the time that Carp extension was signed, he was coming off a 4.4 WAR season and had just finished 9th in MVP voting. Still not a good deal, but I don't think anyone would have predicted how badly his production would have fallen off.

And it's fair to blame Mo for that, but Mo also brought in Goldy and Arenado, which basically gave Shildt the opportunity to stick Carp on the bench. Mo has made other mistakes for sure, I just don't think you can find a GM with a spotless record either.

I also get the DFA argument, but the guy is coming off the books anyway, and as a lefty bench bat may have some minimal value. Why continue paying him to play somewhere else? So you can start the clock on some valuable minor leaguers who would be better served with more playing time rather than riding the pine at the MLB level?
 
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#653      

wpr

wpr
wpr
I'm a little behind in reading and replying to posts so I will put it all here.

I am slightly concerned about Skip Schumaker being the next manager for St Lou. I realize he has been the bench coach in San Diego since 2018. I am certain he is very knowledgeable. He is the kind of player every team needs to be competitive. (You don't want 26 players with his abilities but you want 3-4 guys like him that will help cement the team together.) I want someone who has a proven track record of success. First as a MLB manager. Next as a AAA manager. Third we shall see. This is probably where Skip would come in.
Next, since SD recently fired their manager, they may have the "right of first refusal" so to speak to anoint Skip to be their manager. It would be interesting to know if both teams wanted him who Skip would chose. Also what kind of offer was made by both organizations. The behind the scenes stuff we rarely get to read about.

Next on my list is the comment that continually comes up that the Cardinals franchise is cheap and won't acquire the players they need to compete. this is nonsense. According to Spotracs STL had the 9th highest payroll this year. The teams with higher payrolls were the 2 New York and LA franchises. Also the large market teams Boston, Philly and Houston. The only small market team that out spent STL was SD. As everyone knows spending money doesn't mean wins. LA Angels, NY Mets and SD, not in the playoffs. Yankees, Boston and Dodgers all wild card teams. the Cubs would have been a top 10 payroll team except they bailed out mid season. (They were #3 in both 2019 & 2020.)

I would like to know who was a free agent after the 2020 season that StL should have acquired. Looking at the position players they were not going to replace most of them. They did acquire Arenado at 3rd. They were not going to replace Yadi or Goldy. By the end of the year the outfield was pretty solid. The only place to look is 2B or SS. So let's take a look at those positions.

Edman finished with a slash line of 262/308/387 and a WAR of 3.7. He finished #2 on the team in runs scored with 91. (Goldy was first with 102). His defense was fairly solid a DWar of .9 That may not seem great but he was 6th best at second base.

The three "best" free agents were:
Tommy La Stella (32) 3 year deal for about $19 million. His slash 250/308/405 WAR 0.4
DJ Le Machieu (33) 6 years $90 million. 268/349/362 War 1.5
Marcus Semien (31) 1 year $18 million 265/334/538 War 7.1
At a quick glance hindsight would say he would have made the difference because he hit a more home runs. He didn't show THAT much power before. He would not have hit that many in St Louis. Toronto was 12th. StL 31st. Away games at Baltimore, NYY and Boston would also help his HR total. Milwaukee and Pittsburg are a couple of the stingier parks in the NL Central in addition to Busch. thing is I don't recall hearing anyone say the Cardinals NEED Semien in order to win.

SS- while DeJong was a bust this year, Sosa wasn't too bad. 271/346/389 War 3.2 in limited play. DWar 1.5
FA candidates:
Didi Gregorius (31) 2 year $28 million 209/270/370 War -0.8
Andrelton Simmons (32) 1 year $10.5 million 223/283/274 War 1.4
Nothing here to write home about.
Spending money doesn't mean championships. They let Wong walk because the difference in production between him and Edman wasn't enough to justify the contract. Spending money to spend money doesn't make sense.
If we look at starting pitching you will probably see similar results. I simply don't have time to look at everyone. They had what they hoped would be a solid pitching staff. They had injuries but not everyone was injured in January- February when teams are looking to sign the elite pitchers.

With Mikolas, Martinez, Flaherty, Hudson, Kim, Waino plus Oviedo and Helsey the should have been able to come up with a decent 5 man rotation for the majority of the season.

To wrap up my rambling, I didn't mind having Carp on the 1 game elimination game. Savvy veterans like him find ways to win big games. It happens almost every year in the playoffs. He's been around a long time.
 
#657      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
wpr said:
I'm a little behind in reading and replying to posts so I will put it all here.

I am slightly concerned about Skip Schumaker being the next manager for St Lou. I realize he has been the bench coach in San Diego since 2018. I am certain he is very knowledgeable. He is the kind of player every team needs to be competitive. (You don't want 26 players with his abilities but you want 3-4 guys like him that will help cement the team together.) I want someone who has a proven track record of success. First as a MLB manager. Next as a AAA manager. Third we shall see. This is probably where Skip would come in.
Next, since SD recently fired their manager, they may have the "right of first refusal" so to speak to anoint Skip to be their manager. It would be interesting to know if both teams wanted him who Skip would chose. Also what kind of offer was made by both organizations. The behind the scenes stuff we rarely get to read about.

Next on my list is the comment that continually comes up that the Cardinals franchise is cheap and won't acquire the players they need to compete. this is nonsense. According to Spotracs STL had the 9th highest payroll this year. The teams with higher payrolls were the 2 New York and LA franchises. Also the large market teams Boston, Philly and Houston. The only small market team that out spent STL was SD. As everyone knows spending money doesn't mean wins. LA Angels, NY Mets and SD, not in the playoffs. Yankees, Boston and Dodgers all wild card teams. the Cubs would have been a top 10 payroll team except they bailed out mid season. (They were #3 in both 2019 & 2020.)

I would like to know who was a free agent after the 2020 season that StL should have acquired. Looking at the position players they were not going to replace most of them. They did acquire Arenado at 3rd. They were not going to replace Yadi or Goldy. By the end of the year the outfield was pretty solid. The only place to look is 2B or SS. So let's take a look at those positions.

Edman finished with a slash line of 262/308/387 and a WAR of 3.7. He finished #2 on the team in runs scored with 91. (Goldy was first with 102). His defense was fairly solid a DWar of .9 That may not seem great but he was 6th best at second base.

The three "best" free agents were:
Tommy La Stella (32) 3 year deal for about $19 million. His slash 250/308/405 WAR 0.4
DJ Le Machieu (33) 6 years $90 million. 268/349/362 War 1.5
Marcus Semien (31) 1 year $18 million 265/334/538 War 7.1
At a quick glance hindsight would say he would have made the difference because he hit a more home runs. He didn't show THAT much power before. He would not have hit that many in St Louis. Toronto was 12th. StL 31st. Away games at Baltimore, NYY and Boston would also help his HR total. Milwaukee and Pittsburg are a couple of the stingier parks in the NL Central in addition to Busch. thing is I don't recall hearing anyone say the Cardinals NEED Semien in order to win.

SS- while DeJong was a bust this year, Sosa wasn't too bad. 271/346/389 War 3.2 in limited play. DWar 1.5
FA candidates:
Didi Gregorius (31) 2 year $28 million 209/270/370 War -0.8
Andrelton Simmons (32) 1 year $10.5 million 223/283/274 War 1.4
Nothing here to write home about.
Spending money doesn't mean championships. They let Wong walk because the difference in production between him and Edman wasn't enough to justify the contract. Spending money to spend money doesn't make sense.
If we look at starting pitching you will probably see similar results. I simply don't have time to look at everyone. They had what they hoped would be a solid pitching staff. They had injuries but not everyone was injured in January- February when teams are looking to sign the elite pitchers.

With Mikolas, Martinez, Flaherty, Hudson, Kim, Waino plus Oviedo and Helsey the should have been able to come up with a decent 5 man rotation for the majority of the season.

To wrap up my rambling, I didn't mind having Carp on the 1 game elimination game. Savvy veterans like him find ways to win big games. It happens almost every year in the playoffs. He's been around a long time.
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I agree, just a small note that free agency isn't the only way to spend. You can increase payroll with trades. I was way more critical before the Arenado trade, which did exactly that. If you're looking at what could have been done to improve the team, I think a trade for SS or pitcher wasn't impossible. I have a feeling Story could have been available, though not sure he'd ve worth the cost in prospects, as a likely rental. I'm not upset this didn't happen, just saying there were options out there a more aggressive front office may have pursued. With the Dodgers being so stacked right now I do also think there's a strong argument against trading your better prospects to win now if you're an NL team.
 
#658      

DaChief4ever

D
Urbana
DaChief4ever
pruman91 said:
Just read an article that threw out the possibility of La Russa reunion with the birds.................WOW............


With the news that the St. Louis Cardinals have fired manager Mike Shildt, could a reunion be in the works with Tony La Russa?

Now that Mike Shildt is out as the manager of the St. Louis Cardinals, the front office isn't going to waste any time in finding a suitable replacement. With all the talent this team has, there's simply no reason for them not to be making major noise in the postseason.

With Mike Shildt fired, could Tony La Russa return to Cardinals?​

While folks are hoping for the Cardinals to trade for La Russa, it's looking like the veteran skipper will be returning to the Windy City next campaign. According to MLB insider Bob Nightengale, La Russa is all set to be back in the dugout and a move to St. Louis won't be going down.

-------------------------------------------------------

Hot Stove League already stoked up and it's only october ......lol
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Doubt La Russa comin home.....670 Chicago reports LaRussa staying another year.
 
#659      

wpr

wpr
wpr
the juiceman cometh said:
I agree, just a small note that free agency isn't the only way to spend. You can increase payroll with trades. I was way more critical before the Arenado trade, which did exactly that. If you're looking at what could have been done to improve the team, I think a trade for SS or pitcher wasn't impossible. I have a feeling Story could have been available, though not sure he'd ve worth the cost in prospects, as a likely rental. I'm not upset this didn't happen, just saying there were options out there a more aggressive front office may have pursued. With the Dodgers being so stacked right now I do also think there's a strong argument against trading your better prospects to win now if you're an NL team.
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Yes. I ignored the trade issue completely. The best players cost lots of draft/prospects capital. It's too big of a hole to discuss without sitting in some organization's front office. mainly because we can postulate but have no real insight.
 
#660      

pruman91

pruman91
Paducah, Ky
pruman91
www.stltoday.com

Two out, pressure’s on: After firing his second homegrown, hand-picked manager, Mozeliak’s next choice a defining one for Cardinals

A winning team with returning stars had momentum building for 2022 before the sudden dismissal of manager Shildt allowed frustrations, questions to surface.
www.stltoday.com www.stltoday.com

Two out, pressure's on: After firing his second homegrown, hand-picked manager, Mozeliak's next choice a defining one for Cardinals​




Once the sting from the hit that ended their season started to fade, the Cardinals felt an updraft of confidence carrying them into the offseason from many things that happened leading into that walk-off, wild-card loss at Dodger Stadium.
They set a club record with 17 consecutive wins, they re-signed their bedrock battery, Yadier Molina and Adam Wainwright, and could prepare marketing for their final season together. The centerpiece acquisition of the previous winter, Nolan Arenado, announced his intentions to not exercise an opt-out and raved about the organization’s culture. The chosen outfield blossomed, starter Dakota Hudson returned strong from surgery, and the front office praised the collaborative effort of manager and coaching staff. Internally, they felt a gust of positive momentum — headed into an offseason with a full house of tickets to sell.

And then, in a move as swift and unexpected as its explanation was vague, the Cardinals fired manager Mike Shildt.
For the first time in 10 years they start the offseason with a vacant office in the clubhouse.

The whiplash from the dismissal of a homegrown, hand-picked and winning manager for the second time in 3 ½ years clouded optimism with confusion and focused the fog lights on John Mozeliak. The longtime head of baseball operations identified, groomed, and hired both managers he’s now fired. In the coming weeks, he will be making the third managerial hire of his time atop baseball operations. Given the heightened expectations, questions surfacing from Shildt’s firing, and the stakes of 2022, this is arguably the most significant hire of Mozeliak’s tenure.

Shildt has declined public comment but plans to make a statement Monday.

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very good article.................
 
#661      

jmwillini

J
Tolono, IL
jmwillini
There has to be more to this than just "Philosophical differences". They had to ask for MLB's permission to call a press conference with VERY little lead time and they fired him over the phone? Not buying it. Will be interesting to see what Shildt has to say tomorrow. The MLB part is what gets to me the most. They want nothing interrupting Post Season play. Mo said it was something that came up very recently, which again doesn't sound like "Philosophical differences".
 
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#662      

pruman91

pruman91
Paducah, Ky
pruman91
jmwillini said:
There has to be more to this than just "Philosophical differences". They had to ask for MLB's permission to call a press conference with VERY little lead time and they fired him over the phone? Not buying it. Will be interesting to see what Shildt has to say tomorrow. The MLB part is what gets to me the most. They want nothing interrupting Post Season play. Mo said it was something that came up very recently, which again doesn't sound like "Philosophical differences".
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7ab.gif


I concur 100 % bro...........................
 
#663      

pruman91

pruman91
Paducah, Ky
pruman91
Wonder what the chances are of Max Scherzer coming home to play for the redbirds ?
 
#666      

pruman91

pruman91
Paducah, Ky
pruman91

Mike Shildt: There is 'no merit' to the idea of discord with Cardinals coaches​


According to Woo, tensions began to grow between Mozeliak and Shildt around midseason, when the Cardinals were still hanging around the NL Central race but were struggling to stay above .500. Other factors contributing to the rift might have included the Cardinals’ lack of major moves at the trade deadline, the front office’s desire to incorporate more analytics into the Cards' day-to-day operations and “growing controversy between Shildt and his coaching staff over his leadership tactics and communication.”

Shildt will release his first public statement about his firing on Monday, although but did send a text message to Woo discussing some of these reported issues. There is “no merit” to the idea of discord with the coaches, Shildt said, although as for the other factors cited, “There is merit (to those factors) but not the entire picture.”

As shocking as Thursday’s firing seemed, ESPN.com’s Buster Olney tweeted that rival officials had heard around the middle of August that Shildt’s job could be in jeopardy.

Coaches and veteran Cardinals players declined comment to Goold about the Shildt firing, although Yadier Molina did speak to reporters in Puerto Rico on Saturday, saying the news “took me by surprise. … We had very good communication. We went to the playoffs three times in four years. Maybe there was some problem between him and the management. I can’t give you reasons, but from what I know inside the clubhouse, there wasn’t any kind of problem.”

----------------------------------------------------------------

Looking forward to the full Shildt message
 
#667      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
IlliniFaninHoosierLand said:
Not good. If they're gonna spend money this offseason (which the franchise normally doesn't), they're gonna go after one of the free agent shortstops.
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To add to this, I also read that when the Nationals were shopping him, he apparently insisted on a contending team on the west coast, coming down to the Dodgers and Padres (he could do this because he had a full no-trade clause). If his priority then was to be on the west coast (no idea what the connection there is tbh) then I imagine he won't give us any kind of home town discount, which typically means we're out of the running. We tend to go after bargains (which is pretty smart, usually).
 
#668      

gibb52

G
gibb52
pruman91 said:
Wonder what the chances are of Max Scherzer coming home to play for the redbirds ?
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Will be interesting. The Dodgers can pay him just about anything they want to, and for as many years as they want to. If he really wants to come to StL it could happen but not at $30m/yr for multiple years.
 
#669      

the national

the national
the Front Range
the national
the juiceman cometh said:
To add to this, I also read that when the Nationals were shopping him, he apparently insisted on a contending team on the west coast, coming down to the Dodgers and Padres (he could do this because he had a full no-trade clause). If his priority then was to be on the west coast (no idea what the connection there is tbh) then I imagine he won't give us any kind of home town discount, which typically means we're out of the running. We tend to go after bargains (which is pretty smart, usually).
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Just rumor, but I had heard that Max’s agent reached out to the cardinals twice; first when he was initially shopped and again after the dodgers made thier initial offer, all with Max’s permission. Mo said, thanks but no thanks - both times.
 
#670      

jmwillini

J
Tolono, IL
jmwillini
Marcus S. tag team, 5 years each 225-250 total? A #2 starter and a shortstop who hits better than DeJong. More Cardinals style than paying $250 and up for a Seager. (Though I like the idea of adding a lefty to the lineup, but it isn't my money, lol.)
 
#671      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
www.google.com

Cardinals Rumors: Insider predicts St. Louis signs Albert Pujols

Jon Heyman predicts that the St. Louis Cardinals will sign Albert Pujols. When Albert Pujols was released by the Los Angeles Angels this season, the St. Lo...
www.google.com www.google.com

Not sure how I'd feel about this. On the one hand, I grew up in the Pujols heyday in STL and have very fond memories, and would love for him to retire as a Cardinal. I also think if universal DH happens he would be a pretty good DH/bench bat option against lefties. At the same time, I'm concerned he would cost more than similar options in that same role, and could be used as a fan appeasement measure to cover for lack of invrstment in other areas (SS!) if ownership doesn't want to spend aggressively this offseason.

Edit: Also Yepez deserves an opportunity, he's been absolutely raking in the minors, and signing Pujols would effectively block him. At that point he's probably a trade chip, which could work out ok as his value would increase with universal DH
 
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#673      

wpr

wpr
wpr
I love Albert. He is the kind of amazing off the field person you want to be around. On the field, we have our memories of his greatness. In 2022 he will be a sad shell of what he once was. I watched Gibby go down in flames in 1975. It was tough to witness.
 
#674      

the national

the national
the Front Range
the national
I don’t mind the idea of his spot hitting but I think this is more of a legacy roaster move. If next year really is to be ”the year”, adding Albert would be that much sweeter. It might put a sense of urgency with the team (which I’m a fan of since we’ve been under performing). If the dodgers win it all this year, I wouldn’t be shocked for him to hang up his cleats. He’s still got some pop but is dreadful running the bases.
 
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