St. Louis Cardinals 2021

Status
Not open for further replies.
#677      

pruman91

Paducah, Ky

The St. Louis Cardinals will announce Oliver Marmol as their new manager on Monday, according to a report from The Athletic and MLB Network insider Ken Rosenthal. The club hasn't confirmed the hiring.

Marmol, 35, was the club's bench coach last season. He will replace Mike Shildt, who was dismissed after three full seasons as Cardinals manager.

The club has announced a press conference for Monday at 10 a.m. CT.
 
#680      

jmwillini

Tolono, IL
1635126326844.png


Master of Puppets, I'm pulling your strings...
 
#681      
I've said it before. I would prefer a manager who has managerial experience at the manger league level. Perhaps I'm old. Perhaps this is the new age way of doing things. Perhaps it will work out. I'm a bit skeptical at the moment.
 
#682      
I've said it before. I would prefer a manager who has managerial experience at the manger league level. Perhaps I'm old. Perhaps this is the new age way of doing things. Perhaps it will work out. I'm a bit skeptical at the moment.
Would not have been my preference either, but this does appear to be the new trend. Big decisions made by front office and analytics and manager just there to execute. Pretty much the same thing thet Rays are doing and I've also seen Braves and Dodgers referenced as examples of that approach.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wpr
#684      
Back in the 1920s and 30s many teams had player-managers. I never really thought much about it but they were probably around Marmol's age. I guess what goes around, comes around again.
 
#685      

BillyBob1

Champaign
So does Mo send text messages to the dugout about who to pinch hit?
 
#686      
Back in the 1920s and 30s many teams had player-managers. I never really thought much about it but they were probably around Marmol's age. I guess what goes around, comes around again.
It still happens from time to time in other sports. In the 2019-2020 season Wayne Rooney left the MLS to go back to England and served player-manager for Derby County. After the season he retired from playing and is now just the manager. In basketball, Bill Russel was player-coach for the Celtics and won a couple championships. In baseball I think the most recent is Pete Rose who did it for a couple seasons in the 80s.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wpr
#687      

Illwinsagain

Cary, IL

The St. Louis Cardinals will announce Oliver Marmol as their new manager on Monday, according to a report from The Athletic and MLB Network insider Ken Rosenthal. The club hasn't confirmed the hiring.

Marmol, 35, was the club's bench coach last season. He will replace Mike Shildt, who was dismissed after three full seasons as Cardinals manager.

The club has announced a press conference for Monday at 10 a.m. CT.
I know nothing of him, other than what I read in the press release. Not really "winning the press conference", but that is generally overrated. The team is good enough, with a couple of tweaks, to compete next year. Add an upgrade at shortstop and a couple of quality pitchers, the division should be there for the taking.
 
#688      

jmwillini

Tolono, IL
Just wondering how Mo looks at analytics. He signed Carp to an extension way too soon. He had a great half year, but the other half wasn't very good. Analytics say don't play him the last couple years. Shildt keeps playing him too much. Who does Mo blame, Shildt for going against the analytics, or himslef for giving him the extension? Contracts are gonna play. Traded Fowler, basically paying his entire salary. Luckily was able to trade/(dump) Leake. How often can he blame others for his bad signings?

Oli will eventually be a scapegoat. Whether before or after Girsch is the question Eventually BDW will wake up and have to look at Mo. Though I don't know with their "Make the wild card an catch lightning in a bottle" philosophy, all you have to be is in the top 1/3 of the league.
 
#689      

pruman91

Paducah, Ky
I still wonder what happened behind the lines to warrant Shildt being fired....probably will never know exactly , but I bet it was more hurt feelings and escalation of words than a philosophy difference , unless you call Shildt questioning some of Mo's moves as that difference......

The Cardinals will continue to draw 3 million + and combine that with the broadcasting revenue and revenue sharing from the league they will reap major bucks regardless of who the manager is and really where they finish in the standings...i'm not saying missing the playoffs for an extended period of time and/or having losing records will tolerated but we all know who runs this franchise and Mo is the last person an intelligent manager wants to piss off if you value your job.....

I will look strongly at who the redbirds pursue in the off season to improve the team and see if they are emphatic about going all in to get WS championship # 12.....Getting Arenado and Goldie were very positive moes and I hope maybe Arenado's buddy shortstop from the Rockies might be in play for the Birds....

JMHO
 
#690      
Just wondering how Mo looks at analytics. He signed Carp to an extension way too soon. He had a great half year, but the other half wasn't very good. Analytics say don't play him the last couple years. Shildt keeps playing him too much. Who does Mo blame, Shildt for going against the analytics, or himslef for giving him the extension? Contracts are gonna play. Traded Fowler, basically paying his entire salary. Luckily was able to trade/(dump) Leake. How often can he blame others for his bad signings?

Oli will eventually be a scapegoat. Whether before or after Girsch is the question Eventually BDW will wake up and have to look at Mo. Though I don't know with their "Make the wild card an catch lightning in a bottle" philosophy, all you have to be is in the top 1/3 of the league.
I agree Mo has made mistakes, but on balance do you think he's done a bad job? I tend to think he's done pretty well. Of course the Carp contract ended up being bad, and the Arozarena deal was bad, but man he got Goldy and Arenado without giving up any of the top prospects. And the Voit trade seemed bad initially but he didn't look so hot this season and Gallegos is a very important piece for this team.

Even on the Carp deal, I think it made sense at the time. Nobody would have predicted how swift his decline would come. I've seen estimates valuing 1 WAR at anywhere from $5 million to $8mil a year on the open market. Carp was coming off a 4.4 WAR season. By that measure, even factoring in some expected regression it really didn't seem like an overpay at the time and I don't remember thinking it was a bad deal contemporaneously.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wpr
#691      
I agree Mo has made mistakes, but on balance do you think he's done a bad job? I tend to think he's done pretty well. Of course the Carp contract ended up being bad, and the Arozarena deal was bad, but man he got Goldy and Arenado without giving up any of the top prospects. And the Voit trade seemed bad initially but he didn't look so hot this season and Gallegos is a very important piece for this team.

Even on the Carp deal, I think it made sense at the time. Nobody would have predicted how swift his decline would come. I've seen estimates valuing 1 WAR at anywhere from $5 million to $8mil a year on the open market. Carp was coming off a 4.4 WAR season. By that measure, even factoring in some expected regression it really didn't seem like an overpay at the time and I don't remember thinking it was a bad deal contemporaneously.
I think a big part of the Carp decline was a big increase in the acceptance of defensive shifts. It went from about 4 or 5 teams doing it on a consistent basis with 10-15 teams giving it a token try to nearly every team on nearly every batter overnight.
 
#692      
I think a big part of the Carp decline was a big increase in the acceptance of defensive shifts. It went from about 4 or 5 teams doing it on a consistent basis with 10-15 teams giving it a token try to nearly every team on nearly every batter overnight.
Exactly. That change made a lot of otherwise reasonable contracts look terrible. Before the shift Chris Davis was an absolute beast. Gets a 7 year $161 mil contract that seemed like exactly what he deserved, at 29 going into what should have beem the prime of his career. By the third year of that contract he put up a NEGATIVE 3.3 WAR season. Instead of getting ready for year 6 of his 7 year deal he is now out of baseball, at the age 34. This was by far Carp's worst year at -1.0 WAR, but it could have been so much worse.
 
#693      
Exactly. That change made a lot of otherwise reasonable contracts look terrible. Before the shift Chris Davis was an absolute beast. Gets a 7 year $161 mil contract that seemed like exactly what he deserved, at 29 going into what should have beem the prime of his career. By the third year of that contract he put up a NEGATIVE 3.3 WAR season. Instead of getting ready for year 6 of his 7 year deal he is now out of baseball, at the age 34. This was by far Carp's worst year at -1.0 WAR, but it could have been so much worse.

I'm conflicted. I hate it when MLB Inc or NFL Inc creates more rules. Doing so doesn't usually improve the game. The thought of the MLB mandating an anti-shift rule is intriguing. More than likely it would help players like Carp. Then again teams shifted against Ted Williams and he still was able to get into The Hall despite losing some of his best years to military service. When I was a kid the only lefty in our pick up games was a rank pull hitter. We had our 2nd baseman stand about 20 feet into foul territory (yes I know that's not allowed in official rules.) The kid had the most closed stance I ever saw and yet he still pulled everything foul to the right side. After a while he learned to wait and take it to left.
 
#694      

pruman91

Paducah, Ky
I'm old school evidently, but what happened to the philosophy of ""hit it where they ain't ""

You can blame shifts on Carp's decline , but why did he continually hit into the shift.....and don't tell me he doesn't have the ability to do that as players , especially at the MLB level should able to hit the ball to the third base side of the infield somewhat easily , with the area not covered in the games I watched.....

Carp just declined in bat speed and his ability to cover the plate.....he had a good eye of the strike zone , then he started taking pitches that earlier he was swinging at......he was a very valuable player on the roster that lost something and unfortunately it happened shortly after the 2 yr extension started...

was covid 19 a factor ???.......who knows , but his salary really inhibited other roster moves to be made and the return on his contract investment looks like wasted $$ to me......JMHO
 
#695      
I'm conflicted. I hate it when MLB Inc or NFL Inc creates more rules. Doing so doesn't usually improve the game. The thought of the MLB mandating an anti-shift rule is intriguing. More than likely it would help players like Carp. Then again teams shifted against Ted Williams and he still was able to get into The Hall despite losing some of his best years to military service. When I was a kid the only lefty in our pick up games was a rank pull hitter. We had our 2nd baseman stand about 20 feet into foul territory (yes I know that's not allowed in official rules.) The kid had the most closed stance I ever saw and yet he still pulled everything foul to the right side. After a while he learned to wait and take it to left.
Yeah, I'm not anti-shift really. It's kind of like how in basketball you can double team a bad passer or in football you can sell out for the run against a team that can't pass the ball. The other team/player has an opportunity to exploit a weakness you're creating. I wish more pull hitters would learn how to effectively bunt to the other side. I think over time more hitters will develop the ability to hit to the opposite field, in resposne to the shift (or more likely hitters with that ability will be drafted/promoted over exclusively pull hitters).
 
  • Like
Reactions: wpr
#696      
Just wondering how Mo looks at analytics. He signed Carp to an extension way too soon. He had a great half year, but the other half wasn't very good. Analytics say don't play him the last couple years. Shildt keeps playing him too much. Who does Mo blame, Shildt for going against the analytics, or himslef for giving him the extension? Contracts are gonna play. Traded Fowler, basically paying his entire salary. Luckily was able to trade/(dump) Leake. How often can he blame others for his bad signings?

Oli will eventually be a scapegoat. Whether before or after Girsch is the question Eventually BDW will wake up and have to look at Mo. Though I don't know with their "Make the wild card an catch lightning in a bottle" philosophy, all you have to be is in the top 1/3 of the league.
Girsch doesn't really do anything, Mo and Dewitt pull all the strings. Don't think you see dewitt ever get rid of Mo because he is the biggest yes man I have ever seen. And I think Mo is to blame for the over playing of Carp the last couple seasons....
 
#697      
I'm old school evidently, but what happened to the philosophy of ""hit it where they ain't ""

You can blame shifts on Carp's decline , but why did he continually hit into the shift.....and don't tell me he doesn't have the ability to do that as players , especially at the MLB level should able to hit the ball to the third base side of the infield somewhat easily , with the area not covered in the games I watched.....

Carp just declined in bat speed and his ability to cover the plate.....he had a good eye of the strike zone , then he started taking pitches that earlier he was swinging at......he was a very valuable player on the roster that lost something and unfortunately it happened shortly after the 2 yr extension started...

was covid 19 a factor ???.......who knows , but his salary really inhibited other roster moves to be made and the return on his contract investment looks like wasted $$ to me......JMHO
I get what you're saying, but major league pitching is insanely good, and faster now than it's ever been. Carp found a lot of success hitting it one way, and overnight that approach went from fruitful to obsolete. I have to imagine it's not so simple to just completely change your approach after years of doing it one way, and find success against major league pitching. I'm sure there are other factors too. It ended up being a very bad contract, no doubt. I just don't think it was an obviously bad contract at the time it was signed. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say.
 
#698      

pruman91

Paducah, Ky
I get what you're saying, but major league pitching is insanely good, and faster now than it's ever been. Carp found a lot of success hitting it one way, and overnight that approach went from fruitful to obsolete. I have to imagine it's not so simple to just completely change your approach after years of doing it one way, and find success against major league pitching. I'm sure there are other factors too. It ended up being a very bad contract, no doubt. I just don't think it was an obviously bad contract at the time it was signed. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say.
Anybody that has followed baseball as long as I have knows the velocity is faster now ...........If a major leaguer can't take what the defense gives them then they should sit .....plain and simple.....

my opinion is Carps contract was one of the worst signing's in recent memory and nothing you say will deter my stance on that....

Question for you.......are you a poster by the name of Audi from the 247 scout board ????....if not then you must be related somehow......

No offense intended at all....thank you for your opinion even though it is different than mine....

I am now done posting about Carp's contract , as I hope he will be playing elsewhere if any team is silly enough to sign him....if they do it has to be the biggest incentive's based contract in the history of MLB.....
 
#699      

Illwinsagain

Cary, IL
I agree Mo has made mistakes, but on balance do you think he's done a bad job? I tend to think he's done pretty well. Of course the Carp contract ended up being bad, and the Arozarena deal was bad, but man he got Goldy and Arenado without giving up any of the top prospects. And the Voit trade seemed bad initially but he didn't look so hot this season and Gallegos is a very important piece for this team.

Even on the Carp deal, I think it made sense at the time. Nobody would have predicted how swift his decline would come. I've seen estimates valuing 1 WAR at anywhere from $5 million to $8mil a year on the open market. Carp was coming off a 4.4 WAR season. By that measure, even factoring in some expected regression it really didn't seem like an overpay at the time and I don't remember thinking it was a bad deal contemporaneously.
If memory serves, my issue with the Carp deal was the timing. He had one year, plus an option left (maybe no option). For a guy in his 30's, I thought it would have been prudent to let him play, and pay if you have to. No other team would have offered him that much, even if he had a similar year to the one before.
 
#700      
Anybody that has followed baseball as long as I have knows the velocity is faster now ...........If a major leaguer can't take what the defense gives them then they should sit .....plain and simple.....

my opinion is Carps contract was one of the worst signing's in recent memory and nothing you say will deter my stance on that....

Question for you.......are you a poster by the name of Audi from the 247 scout board ????....if not then you must be related somehow......

No offense intended at all....thank you for your opinion even though it is different than mine....

I am now done posting about Carp's contract , as I hope he will be playing elsewhere if any team is silly enough to sign him....if they do it has to been the biggest incentive's based contract in the history of MLB.....
I don't post on 247 at all, but based on the tone of your post I'm going to guess this Audi and you don't exactly see eye-to-eye.

I respect your opinion, and am not trying to convince anyone Carp was a good contract. He clearly wasn't! I think if you look around the league you'll see a lot of contracts just as bad, or even worse, and for anyone that thinks we can find a GM to replace Mo who's never made a deal that turned out bad, I'd be glad to hear some names. For some examples of some really bad recent contracts, take a look at the linked article. What's interesting to me is there are no Cardinals.

 
  • Like
Reactions: wpr
Status
Not open for further replies.