That is JMO. Not really a statement of should or shouldn't. I just think that the administration is risk averse, JW likes Groce, and they will not risk losing our first 5-star player in a while. My guess is that if Groce gets to the NIT, they will give him one more year.
Winthrop 84, Illinois 80 OT POSTGAME
That is JMO. Not really a statement of should or shouldn't. I just think that the administration is risk averse, JW likes Groce, and they will not risk losing our first 5-star player in a while. My guess is that if Groce gets to the NIT, they will give him one more year.
Illinifanatic4ever
- Orange & Blue Blood in my Veins
Everyone calling for Groce's firing needs to remember that you have one of your best classes coming in next year in a long time and it could be even bigger if say an Epperson commits. I am not saying I'm in favor either way but with the possibility of a firing you will have decommits even though they signed. Especially with a 5 star signed I see no way hes going anywhere next year. Just my opinion.
I will be quite the angry keyboard warrior if that happens.
The never-ending cycle of irrational recruit hype to established player disappointment and backlash really wears me down.
There is no reason to think we'll be better next year than this year. None. We will be extremely inexperienced and thin inside.
Illinifanatic4ever
- Orange & Blue Blood in my Veins
This board gets truly dumb and crazy after a loss. You can point your fingers at many things that went against Illinois last night. Coaching, Players missing free throws. layups, stupid turnovers, our best player going ice cold or even an opposing player playing out of his mind. Should we have lost no. To pin this on one aspect is crazy there seemed to be so many subplots to this game.
My God, what a huge difference there is in University of Illinois fans vs. University of Illinois supporters.
I support this team, these kids, this coaching staff..unconditionally.. as long as they represent this University.
If this staff continues to run a program that holds young men accountable and continues to recruit without succumbing to the dirty BS we all know takes the 5 star recruits out of this state....the same kind many of you thought would take JT away from us last week...I will support them week in and week out. I will grumble at the losses, shake my head at the bad ones such as this, and clap, stomp and cheer at the wins.
The NCAA has created this atmosphere where winning at any cost, money, exposure, and irrational upheaval take precedent over education and morals.
We lost to Winthrop. Get over it. Victory comes in other forms. Winning a basketball game isn't necessarily the biggest victory.
Let me borrow that soapbox good brother and also note that basketball victories are what is sought after on this thread specifically so in terms of precedence, it's very high up there for many. If you want to donate to the nobel prize winning faculty member, by all means cut the check. I want to see basketball wins because that also equates to....someone cutting a check for the entire university. I'm not a settler and I know what other great components exist at the U of I, but I see no reason to short change our expectations for other avenues that could be beneficial for our University.
Not what I said, you need to read my post again. If a player is in a game and does not perform, it is the coach's responsibility to substitute him. If he consistently does not perform, he: a) is significantly less talented and the coach should not have recruited him at this level, or b) coaches have been unsuccessful in their own job to mentally and physically prepare him/them for games, or c) coaches have been unsuccessful instilling the discipline in players to follow directions/game plan, or d) some combination of a-c above.
All of the above are a coach's responsibility.
It seems to me that you just arbitrarily picked a) above just to argue your point.
My God, what a huge difference there is in University of Illinois fans vs. University of Illinois supporters.
I support this team, these kids, this coaching staff..unconditionally.. as long as they represent this University.
If this staff continues to run a program that holds young men accountable and continues to recruit without succumbing to the dirty BS we all know takes the 5 star recruits out of this state....the same kind many of you thought would take JT away from us last week...I will support them week in and week out. I will grumble at the losses, shake my head at the bad ones such as this, and clap, stomp and cheer at the wins.
The NCAA has created this atmosphere where winning at any cost, money, exposure, and irrational upheaval take precedent over education and morals.
We lost to Winthrop. Get over it. Victory comes in other forms. Winning a basketball game isn't necessarily the biggest victory.
Kinda a broad statement.In terms of student-athlete development/integration into the world, winning a bball game isn't the most important part of the puzzle. But, sorry if this is harsh, you don't recruit them to be Evans scholars in engineering.. You recruit them to play and WIN basketball games.
Yeah, I'll take a 5 star recruit over a couple of basketball game wins... But they aren't exactly something you interchange; in fact they are highly correlated in most cases.
And finally, yes, one win isn't the biggest victory, but, right now, making the dance is. And you only do that if you win games.
Maybe I'm assuming too much about what you're saying, but it sounds like you aren't looking at how each piece (i.e. win/lose) can have a major butterfly effect on the team and therefore university. Who knows what lose will trigger a fan or donor to stop watching the game, or coming to the games, or donating the university.
Every time you play a game, that night, the biggest victory the team can achieve that night IS a win.
Again, year five. Plenty of seniors including two point guards and a BT POY candidate. Plenty of size and depth in the front court. Why is this team picked in the lower half of the Big 10?
We can blame the bad roster constructed by the previous coach, injuries, and discipline problems on previous years' struggles. None of those issues affect this team.
I'm not saying this team won't make the tournament. I'm saying there are no excuses not to make the tournament this year other than either a coach that can't get the necessary perfomance out of his players or a coach who wasn't able to recruit a talented enough roster. Last night's loss certainly looked like the former not the latter. We'll see how things go going forward.
I said could be
Yes it was..... Then we hired Groce..... Which I thought at the time was a mistake
I think that what disturbs me the most is that I continue to see the same stuff. Malcolm dribbling out the clock and missing a shot at the end of both halves, with 4 other guys watching. Why isn't the ball in Tracy's hands attacking the bucket or dishing for a layup or contact??
The reason that last night hurt is that I don't see more than 9 conference wins, if things fall our way. Right now I see 9-4 before the conference, if I have done the math right. Is 18-13 with a win in the BTT good enough to get us in? I don't think so. Not sure that 19-12 is good enough, but with a win in BTT maybe. So many things went wrong last night - Mav & Finke not able to finish at bucket, missed free throws, Tate TO in OT, three consecutive TO's at the end of regulation, etc.
I desperately want Groce to be successful here. I have been a fan since the days of Bartow. He, Kruger and Self were just passing through. I have never believed that Groce is just here as a stepping stone. And I understand that we are still talking about young men, not machines. But when are we going to see real improvement, where we can say that as a team the play has improved because of the coaching?
Does he need a new bench/X/O coach to help game plan and run the game? Somebody enlighten me - I want to believe! Where am I wrong in my analysis of the schedule? Based on what we saw, can we realistically expect more than 18 wins?
The reason that last night hurt is that I don't see more than 9 conference wins, if things fall our way. Right now I see 9-4 before the conference, if I have done the math right. Is 18-13 with a win in the BTT good enough to get us in? I don't think so. Not sure that 19-12 is good enough, but with a win in BTT maybe. So many things went wrong last night - Mav & Finke not able to finish at bucket, missed free throws, Tate TO in OT, three consecutive TO's at the end of regulation, etc.
I desperately want Groce to be successful here. I have been a fan since the days of Bartow. He, Kruger and Self were just passing through. I have never believed that Groce is just here as a stepping stone. And I understand that we are still talking about young men, not machines. But when are we going to see real improvement, where we can say that as a team the play has improved because of the coaching?
Does he need a new bench/X/O coach to help game plan and run the game? Somebody enlighten me - I want to believe! Where am I wrong in my analysis of the schedule? Based on what we saw, can we realistically expect more than 18 wins?
As usual, Robert says it best.
"But after a loss like this, I’m just whipped. I’ve held out such hope that John Groce could eventually turn things around, and after tonight, it looks like there’s no chance that happens."
haasi
- New York
If Groce fails to make NCAA but Tilmon et al remain supportive of him, puts Whitman in an interesting spot. Think he'd do everything he could to explore market and see if he could get someone good to fill Groce's spot, provided that Tilmon and everyone else remains committed. If he doesn't think he can do that, I think he'd probably leave Groce in. It's rash to throw Groce out without knowing we have a good replacement and that this great class will remain committed.
We still have a lot of season left and time to put together a good year, but if things really start to turn south, I wouldn't be surprised if Whitman quietly starts putting out feelers in February. Now, who he'd get is anyone's guess. But if he could sell a stocked cupboard, great new facilities, and a supportive AD and administration, not hard to see someone really good being interested.
This is obviously sort of an esoteric argument because none of this would be publicly available information, but I just can't emphasize enough that this isn't how this works.
Lovie was the exception that proves the rule.
Also keep in mind that several teams have lost games like this. Michigan State almost lost at home to a team that is probably worse than Winthrop.
All I have to say is thank God some of our fans aren't the AD. We seriously would go through 10 basketball coaches a year and 5 football coaches a year. And if we ever lost to a non power 5 team they would choose to forfeit the rest of the season.
Easier said than done. If that could be done, programs with more connections and money (e.g., Oregon, UCLA, Oklahoma State) would have avoided embarrassing situations in the past. Unless you go after a coach without a job (e.g., announcer, NBA, etc.), until the opening becomes a reality and you go after them, there is no way to know that you can get that coach and keep the recruits.
Very difficult to do with the "hot" names of coaches in college basketball.
I think the angst is the fact that this is not an aberration but all too typical of what we've seen in the past few seasons.
I was hoping we'd look more like the group that played UAB and ISU last year and maybe there's still time for that.
:thumb:I prefer "Bayesian reasoning"
I don't understand why we don't try Lucas more to see if he could at least attempt to slow down their stud guard while being a dual threat offensively (being able to shoot, but can find shooters). In addition, it was not just that it was Keon going off, but it was that we could not slow down their secondary scorers from making baskets. Either make one or the other beat you, but don't let both. Constantly, we were letting their Power Forward take us off the dribble for some running junk shot. Then we would let them get loose balls.
I think our biggest problem is lack of an interior defensive presence. Thorne is too slow, Maverick is a bad pairing with Finke, and Black is a good rebounder and has some agility, but makes bad decisions and is not a shot-blocker. The biggest thing to me was why not try DJ at the 4 along with any pairing of Finke, Black, or Thorne. D.J. can block shots, can slide, and might have been able to help better on Keon on picks. They were too quick and we did not try DJ at all as he is one of our better athletes (maybe our best honestly). Our biggest run in the second half was when Black was making energy plays, JCL was drawing charges, and we were playing cohesively. In addition while Tate did not play bad (actually thought he played solid d at the end, but he was asked to single-handedly slow down a scorer without real help) he is not a consistent threat offensively and that causes stagnation when we are not lights out on offense.
I think our biggest problem is lack of an interior defensive presence. Thorne is too slow, Maverick is a bad pairing with Finke, and Black is a good rebounder and has some agility, but makes bad decisions and is not a shot-blocker. The biggest thing to me was why not try DJ at the 4 along with any pairing of Finke, Black, or Thorne. D.J. can block shots, can slide, and might have been able to help better on Keon on picks. They were too quick and we did not try DJ at all as he is one of our better athletes (maybe our best honestly). Our biggest run in the second half was when Black was making energy plays, JCL was drawing charges, and we were playing cohesively. In addition while Tate did not play bad (actually thought he played solid d at the end, but he was asked to single-handedly slow down a scorer without real help) he is not a consistent threat offensively and that causes stagnation when we are not lights out on offense.
BananaShampoo
Captain 'Paign
- Phoenix, AZ
Yep. I'm gonna give it 2 or 3 more games before I decide if I'm ready to break out the pitchfork.
Are we even having this conversation if we close it out with an 8 point lead? Mistakes were made but it came down to holding a lead in the last two minutes. One team took the foot off the gas and became reckless and lost.
I was entertained during the game with the exception of seeing poor reffing and some of our players miss shots they typically make.
I was entertained during the game with the exception of seeing poor reffing and some of our players miss shots they typically make.