Arkansas 73, Illinois 63 Postgame

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#476      
HensonHall71
Rudd21 said:
2-12 vs Quad 1s isn’t a good season.

20-13 is a very low bar given 15 of those wins were vs cupcakes or the bottom of the Big 10
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More concerning for me is that we haven't been competitive in the tournament the last three years
as a 1 vs. 8 , 4 vs. 5 and 9 vs. 8 we were never really in the games late.

IMHO - it points to our scouting and/or gameplaning and/or our ability to implement the gameplan - having a bad game happens to everyone, when it's happened three years in a row when it is an even game or you were favored to win and it turns out to not be that competitive - something is really broken with our approach

That is the mirror our coaching staff needs to look in most in my mind - you couldn't exploit the other teams weaknesses or capitalize on your strengths in any of those games. The other teams seemed to have a plan and exploiting our weaknesses. The tournament requires gameplanning for a team you haven't played in short order and we do not seem good at that - at all
 
#477      
Ill in Cols
Get yourself a new map said:
Well it was March pre-transfer portal era. He couldn’t just let everyone walk; he’d have nobody to dress that fall. What I’m talking about is identifying, during the recruiting process, players whom you think will fit and develop in your program. He wasn’t out in gyms watching Trent and Damonte with their club and HS teams. The previous staff was. It stinks Feliz didn’t get a Covid year as he could have fit the bill. It remains that BU and his staff(s) have recruited (in the most classical and well-understood sense of that word) one guard who has stayed for a 3rd year in his program. Maybe he doesn’t even care, but I wish it weren’t the case.
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Here are the guards Brad has recruited, and the presumed reason they left:
2018
alan griffin - mom
tevian jones - character?
ayo
miller - mom

2019

2020
curbelo = headcase
padilla (walk on)

2021
melendez
goode
podz - according to some insinuation, speculation, Brad ran him off

I guess I don't see how things might have changed in any of these cases.

As to Podz, those lamenting his absence from this team, I understand. As always, hindsight is 20/20. After last year ended, if it were known that one of the three freshmen would be leaving, who would be the two most would have wanted to stay? Me, I'm taking RJ and Goode.
 
#478      
DeeAndDWill
GallopingGhost said:
If we are reaching 20+wins each season and making the tournament, but can’t reach the sweet 16, I personally would really be ok giving him another 6-7 years.

At some point it would be time to try for more success but the drums would be so loud at that point for his head that Josh (or whomever) couldn’t ignore it. They would have to have a home run waiting though.

If he keeps falling (1 seed, 4 seed, 9 seed, out, out out) and we have 3-4 mediocre non tournament seasons I think that leash goes to about 3-4 years
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Being fine with a coach at a P5 school that is in the top 20 all time in overall wins, winning percentage, tourney wins, tourney #1 seeds, F4 appearances, E8 appearances go 12-13 years without making out of the first weekend is absolutely wild to me.
 
#479      
Ill in Cols
HensonHall71 said:
More concerning for me is that we haven't been competitive in the tournament the last three years
as a 1 vs. 8 , 4 vs. 5 and 9 vs. 8 we were never really in the games late.

IMHO - it points to our scouting and/or gameplaning and/or our ability to implement the gameplan - having a bad game happens to everyone, when it's happened three years in a row when it is an even game or you were favored to win and it turns out to not be that competitive - something is really broken with our approach

That is the mirror our coaching staff needs to look in most in my mind - you couldn't exploit the other teams weaknesses or capitalize on your strengths in any of those games. The other teams seemed to have a plan and exploiting our weaknesses. The tournament requires gameplanning for a team you haven't played in short order and we do not seem good at that - at all
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I don't disagree at all about this. Should have beat Loyola, no question. But both Loyola and Houston were massively underseeded, and it was out bad luck to be the victim of it.
 
#480      
Frank
Calvin said:
I feel like the best coaches either recruit to the personality type they work best with, or have a gift for knowing how to motivate all kinds of personalities. I don't think Underwood has found the sweet spot.
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Well we know that ain't Underwood. We have enough evidence over the years now to know what kinds of players embrace and thrive under his sideline glares, and what kind shut down and/or transfer. BU doesn't have the personality of a Self or Oats to coax the best out of a range of personalities. He needs to keep finding his Rodgers and Harris and Goode-type players (in mindset) while pushing upwards in talent. The 'what do you need to win' narrative always flips (nationally) from 'you need talent' to 'you need development and good fit' and back again. You absolutely need talent, but I'd rather err towards development, fit, and culture as a program. In this flattened college talent environment, where more top 10-20 recruits are going to Overtime or the G League, there is more opportunity to build a winning formula that way, imo, and this field of 64 proves it.

I also think BU needs to look in the mirror and reassess his Bobby Knight-esque episodes on the sidelines. A lot has changed since BU played ball and entered the coaching ranks. Most kids don't respond to that level of anger and we have little evidence that it has led to positive on-court results. It certainly isn't a recruiting tool for anybody watching a game when that happens. I can't imagine too many kids and their parents can watch his behavior during the NW game (for example) and think "that's where I want to be" or "that's where I feel comfortable sending my kid." It might be different if we were crushing it in the tourney every year, but we're not.
 
#481      
3 point girl
We just lost a very winnable game to a team that will probably have TWO players that will be drafted in the top ten in the upcoming NBA draft. The sky is not falling. We will be fine next year. Getting ready to book the trip to Tennessee when the schedule comes out!!!!!!!!
 
#482      
Battle89
aaeismacgychel said:
Yeah, I agree. It's a lousy position to be in, but when you know you're likely taking the L either way, from a risk assessment standpoint you take the one that has the lower risk of causing long-term irreversible damage. It's a sucky decision, and one that I do not envy him having to make, but he probably did make the best choice in protecting the longevity of the program.
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Having your #1 recruit quit and your portal players benched (option 1) would have killed future recruiting in both areas.
 
#483      
john1952
Frank said:
I also think BU needs to look in the mirror and reassess his Bobby Knight-esque episodes on the sidelines. A lot has changed since BU played ball and entered the coaching ranks. Most kids don't respond to that level of anger and we have little evidence that it has led to positive on-court results. It certainly isn't a recruiting tool for anybody watching a game when that happens. I can't imagine too many kids and their parents can watch his behavior during the NW game (for example) and think "that's where I want to be" or "that's where I feel comfortable sending my kid." It might be different if we were crushing it in the tourney every year, but we're not.
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Agreed. That clip of of UW getting directly in Epps face in the middle of a game very bad optics.
 
#484      
AyoDos11
GallopingGhost said:
If we are reaching 20+wins each season and making the tournament, but can’t reach the sweet 16, I personally would really be ok giving him another 6-7 years.

At some point it would be time to try for more success but the drums would be so loud at that point for his head that Josh (or whomever) couldn’t ignore it. They would have to have a home run waiting though.

If he keeps falling (1 seed, 4 seed, 9 seed, out, out out) and we have 3-4 mediocre non tournament seasons I think that leash goes to about 3-4 years
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This season's outcome had little to do with Brad's coaching ability, but rather the lack of chemistry or a team culture. Brad will learn from his use of the portal and use it in a more supplemental way instead of completely relying on it. But there is no way Brad is declining. We will make a run in the tournament in the next few years. I would bet my beachouse on it.
 
#485      
jjv0004
AyoDos11 said:
This season's outcome had little to do with Brad's coaching ability, but rather the lack of chemistry or a team culture. Brad will learn from his use of the portal and use it in a more supplemental way instead of completely relying on it. But there is no way Brad is declining. We will make a run in the tournament in the next few years. I would bet my beachouse on it.
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Out of curiosity, what is your definition of a run? And by next few years do you mean 2023 and 2024? I will take that bet. I don't have a beach house but I will pay for you to stay for a week somewhere. Illinois is not getting to the elite eight in the next few years. And they might not make the tournament next year. Sorry to disappoint.
 
#486      
Ransom Stoddard
john1952 said:
Agreed. That clip of of UW getting directly in Epps face in the middle of a game very bad optics.
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Self does it, K did it, Roy W. did it, Izzo literally just did it, Weber did it, Huggins does it, Wooden did it, etc. etc. etc. It isn't bad optics, it's holding your players accountable. In the heat of the game you don't have time to get out the good china and sit down and discuss over tea and crumpets.
 
#488      
USAFILLINI
Ransom Stoddard said:
Self does it, K did it, Roy W. did it, Izzo literally just did it, Weber did it, Huggins does it, Wooden did it, etc. etc. etc. It isn't bad optics, it's holding your players accountable. In the heat of the game you don't have time to get out the good china and sit down and discuss over tea and crumpets.
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I don’t think anyone has any issues with accountability. When you are doing it so much, the players are telling other players to just ignore you, your message is being lost. I guess kind of a boy who cried wolf scenario.
 
#489      
NarrowJ
john1952 said:
Agreed. That clip of of UW getting directly in Epps face in the middle of a game very bad optics.
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Where are all of the scathing articles about Brad's yelling? Surely since he is this abusive there should be smart basketball minds in the profession speaking out about this, and its not more than just silly message board fodder. So far there's just a handful of message board people upset about this. It's a huge nothing-burger is what it is.
 
#490      
lexwaldez
ChiefGritty said:
He has absolutely the worst free throw form from a guard I've ever seen.

That is in some sense good news, since it's very easy to identify and work on the problem. It's not like his arms don't work and he has to shoot them that way, he just needs to get in the lab and rebuild his stroke. He doesn't shoot jumpers like that, I expect progress will be made next year.

And of course so, so much else to like about his game. Harris growing into a larger role is a reason for optimism.
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Can we send our kids to a shooting camp? Hell, being sent to a shooting in Indiana was mandatory for our high school team. We all learned to shoot free throws first and jumpers second. Our made shot percentage jumped markedly as a team that year. When we were at camp there were two NBA players (that we weren't allowed to go talk to) on the courts with us learning the same thing. It isn't rocket surgery, and we SHOULD have coaches that can teach that, but DO we have coaches that can/will teach that? I haven't seen our made free throws exactly sky rocket in the last couple years. Shooting doesn't seem to have been a big point of emphasis from our staff (and you'd kind of think that actually scoring points might be in the top two list of priorities). And I don't really care if "we're shooting great in practice" and suck in games. That sort of points to conditioning imho. I really need to see something improve next year.
 
#491      
robjilla
3 point girl said:
Mayer is one of the most selfish players I have ever seen. TEAM is a foreign concept to him - Jacking up horrible shots one after another game after game instead of passing the ball to others with a better shot. Shannon, on the other hand, I have loved watching play ever since high school. Best of luck to him in the future.
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I think that Trent Frazier and Damonte would have helped him out with that team concept. I liked the offensive explosions that he bought (only a handful of games). It will be an interesting offseason. Best of luck to Shannon definately!
 
#492      
Se Il Illini
aaeismacgychel said:
Not to bend over backwards trying to defend him, but I think Brad was likely stuck between a rock and a hard place. I think he realized fairly early on that the players going off-script and not following the game plan were not going to change and when he challenged them there was basically an open rebellion in which he risked fully losing the team. And when the freshman PG you recruited quits the team midseason, that is an eye-opener as well. So my guess is that Brad was forced with 1 of 2 unenviable options: Play only those willing to follow the game plan and bench the rest, hoping they too don't leave the program and the possibly crippling national media story that would follow it, or take a step back, try catering to the players, and let the inmates run the asylum while focusing on trying to coach up and develop the freshmen. Brad in my estimation chose the latter. It was probably the worse of the two options in terms of building a team and the frustrating on-court performances, but it was probably the better decision for the longevity of both his coaching career and more than possibly the program itself.

It's a tough decision to make. Sometimes you know it's a bad decision but you hope for the best only to realize that best is never coming.
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If what you say is correct, there needs to be a major reevaluation of the type of player that this staff recruits.
 
#493      
Se Il Illini
St Michel said:
The puzzling part to me is how often we read "they won't run the plays." Wouldn't any high level coach be expected to bench any such players until they got on board? It seems like a failure of leadership.
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That has been my question all year. If you know the problem (bad 3 point shots for instance), what corrective measures do you take? Tom Izzo quote within the last 30 seconds. "We are going to coach guys and be hard on them".
 
#494      
Get yourself a new map
Ill in Cols said:
Here are the guards Brad has recruited, and the presumed reason they left:
2018
alan griffin - mom
tevian jones - character?
ayo
miller - mom

2019

2020
curbelo = headcase
padilla (walk on)

2021
melendez
goode
podz - according to some insinuation, speculation, Brad ran him off

I guess I don't see how things might have changed in any of these cases.

As to Podz, those lamenting his absence from this team, I understand. As always, hindsight is 20/20. After last year ended, if it were known that one of the three freshmen would be leaving, who would be the two most would have wanted to stay? Me, I'm taking RJ and Goode.
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We can add 2022: Skyy - doesn't appear interested in winning. And Feliz in the '18 class (dang it, he was awesome). Miller was 2020.
It's impossible to foresee any of these issues; or at least one may think that even given some red flags, better than 1 of 6 will pan out and reach their potential in your program. It's such a statistical anomaly that it leaves me wondering "what the heck is going on here?". When I saw coach lay into Epps during the Rutgers game (after what I had perceived as a Hawkins miscue), I couldn't help but wish he'd take it easy on the kid, mostly because of the noted attrition at the guard spot.
Don't get me wrong, I honestly feel it's a shame more than anything and I still think Brad is the right man for this program. I will ride with BU, whatever his philosophy is. The '22-'23 team needed somebody who could dictate tempo and influence good decision-making on offense. It's been suggested that those types are developed within, not easily procured on the transfer market, and most likely not ready to do that as freshman.
To speak to "how things might have changed", not recruiting any guards in the 2019 class seems like a misstep (don't remember the scholly situation, but Tyler U was getting minutes in '19-'20). More than anything, I hope coach does whatever is necessary to avoid a situation like this for future teams. Bringing in guys who might be okay with not being granted abject freedom offensively as freshman would seem like a solid start. This goes hand-in-hand with being wary of guys with problematic "camps" or suspect character. I know it's really hard; recruiting is HARD. So when you get guys who can play and seem like they are good kids, be a little nicer to them.
 
#495      
john1952
Ransom Stoddard said:
Self does it, K did it, Roy W. did it, Izzo literally just did it, Weber did it, Huggins does it, Wooden did it, etc. etc. etc. It isn't bad optics, it's holding your players accountable. In the heat of the game you don't have time to get out the good china and sit down and discuss over tea and crumpets.
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1) There is a new generation of players for whom this in your face public chastising does not play well.
2) Was reading Phil Jackson's Eleven Rings , lots of strategies for holding players accountable without public humiliation.
 
#496      
Roundball Sage
Dan said:
Hello, I'd like to take this opportunity on Page 11 of the Postgame thread to say thanks to everyone for observing, analyzing & take-sharing during yet another crazy season of Illini Basketball on this humble website.

It's not always easy to enjoy Illini MBB, yet through it all the fanbase here remained enormous, loyal & powerful. Thanks again for hanging out & making this place so much fun, lively & informative. Go Illini
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Appreciation from Illini Nation (hey, does that rhyme?) for a Web Place that is simply.. ELITE.
 
#497      
AyoDos11
jjv0004 said:
Out of curiosity, what is your definition of a run? And by next few years do you mean 2023 and 2024? I will take that bet. I don't have a beach house but I will pay for you to stay for a week somewhere. Illinois is not getting to the elite eight in the next few years. And they might not make the tournament next year. Sorry to disappoint.
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Shannon, Hawkins, Goode, RJ, Ty, and possibly others are most likely coming back along with Dra and Hansberry. I'm sorry, but we are definitely making the tournament next year.
 
#498      
DICKnaggie
lexwaldez said:
Can we send our kids to a shooting camp? Hell, being sent to a shooting in Indiana was mandatory for our high school team. We all learned to shoot free throws first and jumpers second. Our made shot percentage jumped markedly as a team that year. When we were at camp there were two NBA players (that we weren't allowed to go talk to) on the courts with us learning the same thing. It isn't rocket surgery, and we SHOULD have coaches that can teach that, but DO we have coaches that can/will teach that? I haven't seen our made free throws exactly sky rocket in the last couple years. Shooting doesn't seem to have been a big point of emphasis from our staff (and you'd kind of think that actually scoring points might be in the top two list of priorities). And I don't really care if "we're shooting great in practice" and suck in games. That sort of points to conditioning imho. I really need to see something improve next year.
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Dick Baumgartner's shooting camp?
 
#499      
Dee_4_Three_83
Se Il Illini said:
If what you say is correct, there needs to be a major reevaluation of the type of player that this staff recruits.
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I would say our approach last offseason was different than this one will be. Last year we got the equivalent of a few 1 year rentals in free agency in the pros instead of letting our prospects take over. I think that evaluation was made because we didn't think RJ and Goode were quite ready to take over a team and we wanted our Freshman to not feel the pressure to have to contribute every day.

If we get TSJ, CH, RJ, Goode, and Ty back next year, we would have a solid core in which to attack the portal for 1 additional starter minutes PG and some role players to fill the role of Backup Big Man, and a Sharp Shooter, that would be a good group to work with. More than anything though, team chemistry has got to be top priority.
 
#500      
Alfonz24
i1nvycanlqto.jpg
 
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