Penn State 71, Illinois 67 POSTGAME

OrangeKrus28 · Jan 28, 2017

Second and Chalmers said:
Let it not be said that our kids don't have heart.

They had no heart in the 1st half, they were soft in the 1st half, they got punked in the 1st half.

Same story, different game: They are unable to play a full 40 minute game. I was happy that Groce decided not to put a positive spin on it because there is no positive when you lose a game you needed.

OrangeKrus28 · Jan 28, 2017

ski300 said:
Unfortunately one of them has to play. Neither Abrams or Tate are playing well but we don't have other options. Same reason Thorne is getting playing time at center. Are so called depth doesn't exist because of under performing seniors.

I'll take Abrams as a shell of his former self over Tate. At least I know that Abrams will fight with every inch of blood, sweat, and tears that he has left. Tate has become the poster-child for Groce's failures at the U of I. Fair or unfair, when you ride with a player like Tate who should be playing at a MAC or OVC school rather than a B10 school, unfortunately, the player is going to get singled out for it.

kuhl84 · Jan 28, 2017

MrOizo said:
We have to be honest that in most matchups, we are worse at the following spots than our opponent:
PG: FAR worse
SG: On par at best; no depth
PF: Worse in depth
C: Worse in depth

At PG, we are totally outclassed. TJL has reduced the gap, but not enough. Our backups put us in trouble when in the game. Our backups at SG, PF, and C absolutely put us in danger (aside from Finke).

It's hard to win with inconsistent play by JCL and Black especially. When they are on along with Malcolm and Morgan, we can hang for stretches with solid teams. But then there's the "sum of our parts" analysis. Once you put us together, we are the opposite of Voltron. We just don't do anything particularly well that is repeatable.

I don't like this team very much, sadly. I will watch and I like a bunch of the players, but I am simply looking for growth from the young players and for awesomeness from Hill. That's the joy to be gained from this squad...

Finke should back up Mav and Black.

ONe of JCL or Hill should always be on the floor. Hill should back up JCL at the 2 and someone else should play 3 (kipper, DJW, or AJ) when JCL is out. TA should back up TJL at the 1. That's it. There would be no rediculous line ups where there are only 2 players that can score. Only 1 or 2 guys that can't guard.

Our defense at the 2 is terrible, we might as well go large and have mismatches on the other end. TA can't guard 2's and he can't score.

618Illini · Jan 28, 2017

JIllini said:
On the bright side, that second half gives me a bit of hope. Beat Wisconsin at home and this loss never happened.

The general apathy around the program is sad. This loss happened either way and beating a mediocre Wisconsin team does not help. 3-7 in the big ten is the new reality and my fear is we are getting way to used to it. We should expect more, if t happens every few years it's one thing if it happens every year that is another story.

OrangeKrus28 · Jan 28, 2017

618Illini said:
The general apathy around the program is sad. This loss happened either way and beating a mediocre Wisconsin team does not help. 3-7 in the big ten is the new reality and my fear is we are getting way to used to it. We should expect more, if t happens every few years it's one thing if it happens every year that is another story.

The fan base has become apathetic, but can you blame the fan base? When your team is repeatedly a bubble team or an NIT team for the last 10 years, you are basically brainwashed into believing that is the best your school can do. I think there was only 1 time since Dee/Augustine left school that Illinois was a 5 seed or higher and that was 08-09 I believe when they were a 5 seed and got snake bitten with the injury to Chester Frazier that derailed their chances of doing anything that year when they lost to Western Kentucky in the 1st rd. Otherwise, they have been a sub-par to slightly above average in all other years.

skibdaddy · Jan 28, 2017

whovous said:
Three unpopular thoughts:
1) Not a flagrant. The player was unimpeded to the basket even after Tate bumped his arm. I did not see a grab, I saw Tate stumble and hit his arm;
2) The 20 point deficit in the first half is 95% on the player and five percent on the coach; and,
3) The comeback in the second was 95% coaching. Groce has had some badly coached games, but this absolutely was not one of them.

I agree with #3... we made a change to our defense in the second half where our perimeter players were switching on ball screens and that caused a lot of problems for Penn State's offense. It caused a couple bad moments were no one guarded the ball and 2 guys guarded the screener but they were freshmen usually in that situation. Nice adjustment by the staff, however someone has to light a fire under these guys to start a game for once at the tip. Groce also mixed in some 2-3 zone, but used it just enough to keep it effective... Another good move on his part.

OrangeKrus28 · Jan 28, 2017

skibdaddy said:
I agree with #3... we made a change to our defense in the second half where our perimeter players were switching on ball screens and that caused a lot of problems for Penn State's offense. It caused a couple bad moments were no one guarded the ball and 2 guys guarded the screener but they were freshmen usually in that situation. Nice adjustment by the staff, however someone has to light a fire under these guys to start a game for once at the tip. Groce also mixed in some 2-3 zone, but used it just enough to keep it effective... Another good move on his part.

His substitution patterns basically offset any adjustments he made from a defensive standpoint. How Tate and Thorne are still getting tons of minutes just simply boggles the mind. There should be an 8-9 man rotation at worst with Finke/Nichols/Abrams being 6th/7th/8th men off the bench. Tate should spell Lucas for little stints but should not be getting more than 7-9 minutes a game unless Lucas is in foul trouble. Tighten up the rotation so players know what their roles are and become accustomed w/playing in a set rotation. Today, I saw a completely discombobulated rotation. I saw Abrams/Tate/Thorne together which should absolutely never be happening.

Even the media is questioning the substitution patterns. It's not just us fans anymore.

oldman · Jan 28, 2017

Hill, TJL, Black, Finke, JCL, MM, Kipper. 10 minutes for Abrams until his legs get better. No one else for more than 5 minutes at most.

ILLHangOut · Jan 28, 2017

OrangeKrus28 said:
His substitution patterns basically offset any adjustments he made from a defensive standpoint. How Tate and Thorne are still getting tons of minutes just simply boggles the mind. There should be an 8-9 man rotation at worst with Finke/Nichols/Abrams being 6th/7th/8th men off the bench. Tate should spell Lucas for little stints but should not be getting more than 7-9 minutes a game unless Lucas is in foul trouble. Tighten up the rotation so players know what their roles are and become accustomed w/playing in a set rotation. Today, I saw a completely discombobulated rotation. I saw Abrams/Tate/Thorne together which should absolutely never be happening.

Even the media is questioning the substitution patterns. It's not just us fans anymore.

Completely agree. Tracy has played very poorly, and IMO is not the 8th best performer, but unless JCL or Malcolm shift into the distributor role when TJL is out there aren't many options that keep both him and Tate off the floor the entire game.

IntenselyOrange · Jan 28, 2017

ILLHangOut said:
Completely agree. Tracy has played very poorly, and IMO is not the 8th best performer, but unless JCL or Malcolm shift into the distributor role when TJL is out there aren't many options that keep both him and Tate off the floor the entire game.

JCL cannot put the ball on the floor and initiate offense. We all want him to be more versatile, but the fact is that he's a shooter. Maybe he can develop over the summer, but he cannot right now.

When Lucas is out, Hill must initiate the offense. Lucas isn't much of an offensive threat, but at least he meets the threshold of playability that neither Abrams or Tate can. But he still needs to be out there with 4 guys who can score because he does not even look to score.

illini80 · Jan 28, 2017

Won't win many games on the road when you give up 45 in the first half. No big surprise there. Penn State's composure was poor, but we played really hard the second half. Not particularly smart, but hard. Our defense was better this game, but a long ways from good.

Still amazed how much trouble we have getting the ball inbounds. There could have been 4 or 5 - 5 second calls. They have a slow count and the last I knew the ball had to be in possession, not just out of the passers hands.

Pet peeve: What exactly is the point of letting the ball roll up the court and waiting to pick it up. In the first half no less. Just bugs the heck out of me. I suppose that's the least of our problems.

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Jan 28, 2017

illini80 said:
Pet peeve: What exactly is the point of letting the ball roll up the court and waiting to pick it up. In the first half no less. Just bugs the heck out of me. I suppose that's the least of our problems.

I had wondered about that as well since I've seen a lot of players doing that. Someone suggested the new shorter shot clock is the reason, not touching the ball keeps the shot clock from starting. Makes sense, I guess.

sunman · Jan 28, 2017

kuhl84 said:
Finke should back up Mav and Black.

ONe of JCL or Hill should always be on the floor. Hill should back up JCL at the 2 and someone else should play 3 (kipper, DJW, or AJ) when JCL is out. TA should back up TJL at the 1. That's it. There would be no rediculous line ups where there are only 2 players that can score. Only 1 or 2 guys that can't guard.

Our defense at the 2 is terrible, we might as well go large and have mismatches on the other end. TA can't guard 2's and he can't score.

I agree that the lineups are way messed up. Abrams is not a 2. And should never play the 2. And even though Kipper is learning on the fly. We need his motor and athleticism.

Se Il Illini · Jan 28, 2017

College basketball is a 40 minute game. Teams like cannot Illinois cannot sleepwalk through the first 20 minutes and magically rev up the engine in the second half and expect to win very often.

Adnarel · Jan 28, 2017

I am at a loss as to conceive of how this team is so consistently MIA in the first half of road games. It's uniquely bad even among Groce teams.

coltjames03 · Jan 28, 2017

I get it everyone loves TJL but in all reality his plus minus today was worse than Tate's. Not one of these PGs should start or play a lot of minutes right now. Not often a team has PGs and none of them are scorers. That's the amazing part right now

PlayAZ · Jan 28, 2017

ILL basketball

Lack of first half urgency...you would think Groce with job on the line? would at least have figured out how to have the team prepared and fighting every first half right.....guess not?

Second half out played a lesser team with lesser talent with a marginal/average coach, but still lost see above...

:chief:

sunman · Jan 28, 2017

coltjames03 said:
I get it everyone loves TJL but in all reality his plus minus today was worse than Tate's. Not one of these PGs should start or play a lot of minutes right now. Not often a team has PGs and none of them are scorers. That's the amazing part right now

Well. I don't think I saw the same game as you. Tate played bad. From defense, inbound turnovers, holding the ball to the end of the shot clock, and a stupid flagrant foul.

Yes Lucas had some boneheaded freshman plays, but he was still clearly the best point guard we had today on both ends of the court.

coltjames03 · Jan 28, 2017

sunman said:
Well. I don't think I saw the same game as you. Tate played bad. From defense, inbound turnovers, holding the ball to the end of the shot clock, and a stupid flagrant foul.

Yes Lucas had some boneheaded freshman plays, but he was still clearly the best point guard we had today on both ends of the court.

Not disagreeing but from what Werner tweeted out no don't know how to put it on here Tate had a better plus minus over the other two. Yet that doesn't say much because right now we have no real point guard. We have 2 passers and a guy who has lost his way. Could be worn down or completely no confidence Abrahms is lost right now.

coltjames03 · Jan 28, 2017

PlayAZ said:
Lack of first half urgency...you would think Groce with job on the line? would at least have figured out how to have the team prepared and fighting every first half right.....guess not?

Second half out played a lesser team with lesser talent with a marginal/average coach, but still lost see above...

Not quite sure about lesser talent. Most good teams has an above average point guard who can score. Right now we have an above average passer who needs to be confident in his shot and shoot it

TooHot4Tots · Jan 28, 2017

TJL is best PG, hands down. System blows and Groce doesn't adapt. Unfortunate since this conference is weak. Win BTT!

Calvin · Jan 28, 2017

OrangeKrus28 said:
Same story, different game:

+1

To my thinking, today was the end of the Groce era. Not that this game would have saved him, but we've been in must-win mode for too many games since the 3 game losing streak in the non-conf put us in a tough position. You can just feel the margin for error tightening as the conference games tick by, then slipping away. Technically, we're not out of it until we lose in the BTT, but I think we're realistically out of it.

They'll be no tourney bid, and I think that's the end of it.

westms77 · Jan 28, 2017

Calvin said:
+1

To my thinking, today was the end of the Groce era. Not that this game would have saved him, but we've been in must-win mode for too many games since the 3 game losing streak in the non-conf put us in a tough position. You can just feel the margin for error tightening as the conference games tick by, then slipping away. Technically, we're not out of it until we lose in the BTT, but I think we're realistically out of it.

They'll be no tourney bid, and I think that's the end of it.

If thats the case then absolutely....can't crap the bed at Michigan and Penn St....Wisc game is now do or die

Sir Dunk A Lot · Jan 28, 2017

coltjames03 said:
I get it everyone loves TJL but in all reality his plus minus today was worse than Tate's. Not one of these PGs should start or play a lot of minutes right now. Not often a team has PGs and none of them are scorers. That's the amazing part right now

In reality he is way better than Tate, but yes, he still needs work. Regardless what his stats say in one game, he makes more happen in a positive manner than Tate or Tracy, and its not even close. That being said I've never been much of an basketball analytics.

OrangeKrus28 · Jan 29, 2017

Calvin said:
+1

To my thinking, today was the end of the Groce era. Not that this game would have saved him, but we've been in must-win mode for too many games since the 3 game losing streak in the non-conf put us in a tough position. You can just feel the margin for error tightening as the conference games tick by, then slipping away. Technically, we're not out of it until we lose in the BTT, but I think we're realistically out of it.

They'll be no tourney bid, and I think that's the end of it.

It's odd because the way they came back in the 2nd half, it was as if they were playing for their coach. But, why couldn't they have that same effort on the defensive end in the 1st half? Something is off with this team. It is likely the players who will cost Groce his job. I did realize one thing today. I realized that Groce has not lost this team yet. Down 20 pts, they cut it down to 11. Then, I think it was Garner or Banks who hit the 3 to get it up to 14 and that's when we saw the mad man come out of Groce. Groce completely took it to another level and got into the players like I've never seen. And what did they do? They locked up defensively and cut the lead down to 3. That's a sign that the coach still has the players' attention, which is positive, contrary to what a lot of us thought was going on.

Me personally, like I've indicated before, Groce needs to tighten up that rotation once and for all. Thorne is doing nothing, so he needs to be given the DJW treatment unfortunately. I understand playing Tate to spell Lucas but overall, Tate's minutes should be limited because when he takes the ball up to half court, he slows the offense down completely and there is no constant movement when he is running the show. Things slow down to a complete standstill. Also, Tate's defense is suspect at best. I seriously cannot believe that Lucas as a freshman is outplaying these seniors.