St Louis Cardinals 2023

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#701      

GILL-INOIS

G
GILL-INOIS
the juiceman cometh said:
You mentioned the Marlins specifically, and it's Luzardo by process of elimination. Marlins aren't parting with Alcantara or Cabrera, at least not for TON and a prospect, unless that prospect is Walker or Winn. And it's not misleading to say Luzardo has major question marks. Yes, he was good last season when he was healthy and yes he's been good this season. But he still only pitched 100 innings last season. And he's not that far removed from some really bad 2021 numbers. It really is similar to Matz, is my point, that's all. Matz also had a good year with Toronto, after a mixed track record and a bad 2020 with the Mets. Matz also struggled to pitch consistent innings, though he at least hit 150 a few times, which Luzardo has never done. Since the Cardinals won't spend on free agent pitching, trade is going to be the most realistic shot at getting an ace, and I'm not sure Luzardo is the basket I'd put my eggs in.
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You are picking and choosing what you want to hear...this is exactly what I put.

"It will be an under the radar pitcher or mid 20s pitcher say from the Marlins who have experience and could thrive in a different environment. Likely be TON and a prospect if that happens."

I mentioned a few random pitchers in other posts before. It is an opinion, doesn't mean it will happen or I even want it to happen. The only person I have mentioned on here countless times before they can give almost whatever up for is Ohtani and I would be fine with it.

To your quote above, difference between Matz and Luzardo is a decent amount. Mozeliak threw around that deal to Matz before pitching prices went up. Not sure why he did it but he would have looked like a genius if it worked out. Unfortunately for us it has been a nightmare. Luzardo has 3 more years of arbitration after this one. I would actually like the Cardinals to re-sign Montgomery but doubt they will. If they wouldn't, Luzardo is a lefty that is around the same level with more upside. Don't let the numbers fool you...Luzardo got no run support last season at all. He was 4-7 with a 3.32 ERA in 18 starts and the team gave him 3 runs or less in 80% of his starts. Most runs they gave him all season was 5 runs....one time. He is 2-1 this season and team is 5-1 when he starts. Like I said before I never mentioned I want this to happen but I am positive the front office knows about him already even if nothing comes out of it. I would love the Cardinals to get an ace, but TON and just a prospect would be good to get a #2 range pitcher. It might seem like the Cardinals front office guys sit around but they are on the road all the time.
 
#702      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
GILL-INOIS said:
You are picking and choosing what you want to hear...this is exactly what I put.

"It will be an under the radar pitcher or mid 20s pitcher say from the Marlins who have experience and could thrive in a different environment. Likely be TON and a prospect if that happens."

I mentioned a few random pitchers in other posts before. It is an opinion, doesn't mean it will happen or I even want it to happen. The only person I have mentioned on here countless times before they can give almost whatever up for is Ohtani and I would be fine with it.

To your quote above, difference between Matz and Luzardo is a decent amount. Mozeliak threw around that deal to Matz before pitching prices went up. Not sure why he did it but he would have looked like a genius if it worked out. Unfortunately for us it has been a nightmare. Luzardo has 3 more years of arbitration after this one. I would actually like the Cardinals to re-sign Montgomery but doubt they will. If they wouldn't, Luzardo is a lefty that is around the same level with more upside. Don't let the numbers fool you...Luzardo got no run support last season at all. He was 4-7 with a 3.32 ERA in 18 starts and the team gave him 3 runs or less in 80% of his starts. Most runs they gave him all season was 5 runs....one time. He is 2-1 this season and team is 5-1 when he starts. Like I said before I never mentioned I want this to happen but I am positive the front office knows about him already even if nothing comes out of it. I would love the Cardinals to get an ace, but TON and just a prospect would be good to get a #2 range pitcher. It might seem like the Cardinals front office guys sit around but they are on the road all the time.
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What does run support have to do with the guy being unable to stay healthy enough to pitch more than 100 innings?

Cards fans ride TON for only having one season where he played consistently. Luzardo doesn't even have that.

Before the season began there was a lot of talk about trying to trade for Tyler Glasnow. I didn't like it because the guy's never healthy. Guess what? He got injured again during spring training and still isn't back.

Fans need to stop getting excited about mid-rotation arms with major question marks otherwise the endless parade of milquetoast rotations will never end.
 
#703      

GILL-INOIS

G
GILL-INOIS
the juiceman cometh said:
What does run support have to do with the guy being unable to stay healthy enough to pitch more than 100 innings?
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The guy is 25. Cardinals wouldn't have any rotation if we limited people based on injuries.
the juiceman cometh said:
Cards fans ride TON for only having one season where he played consistently. Luzardo doesn't even have that.
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Replacing an OF is a little easier than a Starting Pitcher

the juiceman cometh said:
Before the season began there was a lot of talk about trying to trade for Tyler Glasnow. I didn't like it because the guy's never healthy. Guess what? He got injured again during spring training and still isn't back.

Fans need to stop getting excited about mid-rotation arms with major question marks otherwise the endless parade of milquetoast rotations will never end.
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Who said fans were excited? I never said I was at all. You are actually the one that mentioned Luzardo's name in the first place.


Instead of criticizing everything maybe you could throw out some ideas. It doesn't make you or me a GM :ROFLMAO:
 
#704      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
GILL-INOIS said:
Instead of criticizing everything maybe you could throw out some ideas. It doesn't make you or me a GM :ROFLMAO:
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LOL! This whole discussion literally started with me throwing out an idea, and you disagreed with at least a portion of it, and we were off to the races.

I feel bad for anyone else wanting to talk about the Cards on this thread at this point so you can go ahead and get the last word in if you want.
 
#705      

GILL-INOIS

G
GILL-INOIS
the juiceman cometh said:
LOL! This whole discussion literally started with me throwing out an idea, and you disagreed with at least a portion of it, and we were off to the races.

I feel bad for anyone else wanting to talk about the Cards on this thread at this point so you can go ahead and get the last word in if you want.
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Probably the only thing I disagreed with is the Motter comment on playing SS....not much else :ROFLMAO:

Just because I mention something doesn't mean that I want it to happen. Cardinals have a way of doing things and you don't approve, that is more than fine. Look at my other posts in the Cardinals section...not like I attack anyone lol
 
#706      

IllinoisRebel

I
IllinoisRebel
I read the last two posts and saw that you guys apparently had some disagreements. I won't go read the other posts, because I'm sure you are both wrong, lol. That's what's great about baseball. The conversations during the season and the hot stove league during the offseason. One thing we surely can agree on is the Cardinals suck!!!! It looks like they have forgot how to win...totally lost! If something isn't done to put a jolt into this team very soon...this season is lost, if it's not already. I can think of a bunch of things, I'd like to see done, but they'd probably turn out wrong. Let's just hope something gets better soon!
 
#707      

GILL-INOIS

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GILL-INOIS
Definitely agree that the Cardinals need to make some moves. Even if they don't want to trade yet they can move some players around.

Little surprised Liberatore hasn't been called up yet. Cardinals are in a hard spot with the remaining contract of Matz. Something I wouldn't mind seeing is bring up Liberatore in Matz spot, move Matz to bullpen and Woodford down to minors. Need to shake up the pitching rotation and Wainwright and Liberatore can't make it worse(or did I jinx it).

Arenado is hitting around .100 for a little over 2 weeks now. When it rains it pours.....time for some sunshine
 
#713      

viking6888

viking6888
Greeley, Colorado
viking6888
1683169752386.png
 
#714      

wpr

wpr
wpr
viking6888 said:
Next step is not hearing any boos because the seats are empty
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THAT would finally change things. The tickets are already sold (at least a large chunk of them. But if fans don't show you there goes the sales of merch and beer.
 
#715      

pruman91

pruman91
Paducah, Ky
pruman91
www.stltoday.com

Angels pull the rug out from Giovanny Gallegos and the Cardinals in the 9th inning

Cardinals relief pitcher Giovanny Gallegos gave up a pair of ninth-inning home runs in a back-breaking loss to the LA Angels on Wednesday night.
www.stltoday.com www.stltoday.com

www.stltoday.com

Hochman: How bad is it for the Cardinals? A comeback could ‘get a Disney movie’

The 2023 Cards are 10-21.That’s on pace for 52-110.No, the Cardinals won’t be that bad.But at this point, it’s really hard to believe they’ll be good enough to play in
www.stltoday.com www.stltoday.com
 
#718      

Bigtex

Bigtex
DFW
Bigtex
the juiceman cometh said:
What does run support have to do with the guy being unable to stay healthy enough to pitch more than 100 innings?

Cards fans ride TON for only having one season where he played consistently. Luzardo doesn't even have that.

Before the season began there was a lot of talk about trying to trade for Tyler Glasnow. I didn't like it because the guy's never healthy. Guess what? He got injured again during spring training and still isn't back.

Fans need to stop getting excited about mid-rotation arms with major question marks otherwise the endless parade of milquetoast rotations will never end.
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Outside of Goldy and Nolan the team is built on middle of the road players. Maybe some will progress but have a large enough sample size for limited expectations.

Limited MLB experience with good upside - Gorman and Walker

nice platoon or everyday players - Edman, Montgomery, Lars, Carlson, Contreras

Have already seen enough - Oneill, DeJong, Matz, Donovan, Marmol, Flaherty (like wacha i thought he had huge upside), Mikolas,

When is Marmol fired and is Yadi the replacement?
 
#719      

pruman91

pruman91
Paducah, Ky
pruman91
Big Jack said:
I say fire Mozo and Marmol... then hire Yadi, Albert and Matt to run the club..... At least it would be entertaining
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They hired Matt once and he backed out .....doubt he gets another chance for a while , if ever........

If the Cardinals continue this pace of play to the All Star break , then I bet Marmol gets the short haircut.......

Mo has been above .500 for like 18 seasons in a row so I would expect he gets another year before his seat gets hot......Now if the redbirds finish in last place with a 100 loss season then all bets are off.....

Yadi isn't coming back right now , from what I've read and Albert is doing that 10 yr personal services thingy with the Angels.......
If Marmol gets let go , then the Cardinals should look outside the organization for the new manager.....JMHO
 
#720      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
Bigtex said:
When is Marmol fired and is Yadi the replacement?
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Noooooooo.

I love Yadi. Last thing I want is for him to step into this mess of an organization, with no managerial experience, and go from legendary player to manager fans hate. Would he be better than Marmol? Maybe. Probably even. Would he turn this club into a contender? I doubt it, not unless there's also a big change in philosophy in ownership and front office.

Best thing is to hire someone with a track record of success, from outside the organization.
 
#721      

GILL-INOIS

G
GILL-INOIS
Cards have looked real bad so far but I am not throwing the towel in. Almost like a Tic Tac Toe Board of ways to lose and we have covered almost all of them a little over a month into the season :ROFLMAO: (Been through years and years of frustration with Blues and season ticket holder...this is frustrating but not end of the world)

Cardinals need to designate Matz to the minors or at best move him to the bullpen. There are some guys in the minors that should be given a shot over some of the guys we have up. If they want to wait on trades, shake the roster up a bit.

Cardinals so far are 1-5 in one run games. They will need to shore this up but 3 of the past 4 World Series have had teams with losing records at this time. Not at this record but none of them looked like teams that would make that run either. 2019 Nationals 13-18 (won WS), 2021 Braves 15-16 (won WS) and 2022 Phillies 14-17(lost WS). That in no way means I think the Cardinals will make the World Series but teams do make runs. If a month from now we stay where we are or lose more ground than it is time to play for next season and move guys we don't plan on seeing on next years squad.
 
#723      

socalini

socalini
So Cali
socalini
My dream scenario (probably not anyone else's): Bring in Joe Maddon (should've hired him when they hired Matheny) as Manager. Try and get Yadi as Pitching Coach / Apprentice Manager sometime in the next couple of years.

I've never been as negative as some about Mo, but he really screwed up in not shoring up the pitching coming into this year. We have 2 future HOFers; Gold Glovers and a great prospect covering the middle infield; a solid catcher; a future All Star in the outfield; and enough talent to fill in the rest. Other than Montgomery and Flaherty (who I don't expect to re-sign), we have significant issues throughout the entire pitching staff. I would try to get some value out of Flaherty, O'Neill, Carlson, Hicks and some prospects if we're sellers at the deadline.
 
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#724      

Se Il Illini

Se Il Illini
Se Il Illini
pruman91 said:
They hired Matt once and he backed out .....doubt he gets another chance for a while , if ever........

If the Cardinals continue this pace of play to the All Star break , then I bet Marmol gets the short haircut.......

Mo has been above .500 for like 18 seasons in a row so I would expect he gets another year before his seat gets hot......Now if the redbirds finish in last place with a 100 loss season then all bets are off.....

Yadi isn't coming back right now , from what I've read and Albert is doing that 10 yr personal services thingy with the Angels.......
If Marmol gets let go , then the Cardinals should look outside the organization for the new manager.....JMHO
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So when was the last time this organization looked outside for a manager? You know the answer to that as well as I do. Larussa. When was the last time this organization hired a manager with any previous major league managerial experience? Larussa. My view is that Ollie Marmol was put in a very difficult position because management chose to stand pat during the off season except for the Contreras signing. Since 1967 the only 2 managers to win world series were named Herzog and Larussa. Both of them came from outside the organization. As a result the Cardinals next hire needs to come from outside the organization. So I cosign.
 
#725      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
socalini said:
My dream scenario (probably not anyone else's): Bring in Joe Maddon (should've hired him when they hired Matheny) as Manager. Try and get Yadi as Pitching Coach / Apprentice Manager sometime in the next couple of years.

I've never been as negative as some about Mo, but he really screwed up in not shoring up the pitching coming into this year. We have 2 future HOFers; Gold Glovers and a great prospect covering the middle infield; a solid catcher; a future All Star in the outfield; and enough talent to fill in the rest. Other than Montgomery and Flaherty (who I don't expect to re-sign), we have significant issues throughout the entire pitching staff. I would try to get some value out of Flaherty, O'Neill, Carlson, Hicks and some prospects if we're sellers at the deadline.
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Mo certainly deserves his fair share of blame, but I'm not quite sure what pitcher he could have signed without signifcantly increasing payroll. I think DeWitt deserves criticism for being a cheapskate.

Now, where I do think Mo has been an abject failure is managerial hires. Striking out over and over again. That may well make him deserving of the axe but I'm skeptical that his replacement does much better if out payroll budget doesn't get more competitive.
 
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