TSJ Thread
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Enter Dan Webb? Kind of puzzled by his current representation. No offense to him.
JW
- Vancouver
I should not have directed #2 at you, but at the at the board in general. You didnt, but others have suggested Shannon is being set up or that the accused is seeking compensation. So for that I apologize to you, that was unfair.
To be clear I don't think the evidence is sound or has been presented fairly. It hasn't been presented at all. We are far too early in the case for that. My argument is that none of us have seen the evidence, so we are in no position to suggest, as many have, that Shannon is innocent or has done nothing wrong.
I'm sure upon reflection you agree I play no role in the progress against prosecutorial abuse. If someone clearly articulated some evidence of prosecutorial abuse, that might be starting point.
I do think as Illinois graduates and fans we should be more aware of our bias as it relates to Shannon and his accuser.
While circling the wagons is human nature, it is not the best approach. While we may have a terrible prosecutor or a unscrupulous accuser, there is no credible or reliable evidence on which to reach such a conclusion.
You are a child and adolescent psychologist and it is your professional opinion that 75% of the children and teens who have reported to you that they are victims of sexual abuse were lying about it and false accusing someone who did nothing wrong? That is . . . some kind of statement indeed.
False allegations happen. And of course it occurs more often when certain factors are involved. I don’t think that is in dispute. But I’ve never seen any scholarly, academic, or medical research on this much-studied topic that places the incidence of false allegations any higher than 10%, and the general consensus is more in the 2-5% range. That’s from studies conducted by organizations like the National Institutes of Health and the FBI. There was one controversial report that came out of the Pentagon decades ago that put the percentage of false allegations at 18% and that was considered the farthest outlier on this subject.
Meanwhile, you’re coming in at a 75% false-allegation assessment rate and you’re the one telling these kids and teens that they should not be believed? I find that disturbing on a number of levels.
They can either find an attorney licensed in Kansas or Sutter can apply for his license in Kansas. I think most states have reciprocal arrangements that make this fairly easy, but I'm definitely no expert.
Thank you.
Chad Fleck
- Eureka, IL
The "believe all women" part of Me Too was ridiculous. That saying alone made it seem like it went too far.
You seem to have some strong "beliefs". You also seem ready to throw the 1st stone.
JFGsCoffeeMug
BU:1 Trash cans:0
- Chicago
His statement could be used as evidence AND he would identify himself as a potential witness in the case.
Would be idiotic.
What a bunch of cowards. You make the best (right) decision you can with the information you have available.
If that information leads you to really believe TSJ didn't do anything wrong, he plays. If not, he doesn't.
The info gathering is complicated, the decision is not.
You do what is right not what the clowns in the media and others say or think about you or the program. I don't know who this Berstein guy is but I don't give two flying effs what he thinks or says.
For the record my clients are more often the accused. Young adult boys/men are my wheelhouse.
I share in feeling disturbed.
Not too long ago a client just sued our beloved Univeristy for wrongful expulsion and won due to a diagnosed borderline personality disorder girlfriend who was hell bent on making his life miserable.
Most recently I had to take the stand for a client who had such allegations thrown at him after what was a very messy breakup which he initiated. Luckily he was exonerated largely by the text “I’m going to make your life a living hell” and others like it.
Last year a client had a one night stand with a girl who was very young and naive. She was terrified that’s she might be pregnant and felt she needed to tell her parents. Well, she didn’t want her parents to think that their young sweet girl was doing “nasty” things and mom and dad also didn’t want to believe their young daughter was engaging in such things so it’s very interesting how cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias can filter events.
Also, I have lawyer friends who have corroborated similar observations. Again maybe this is all anecdotal and we are just statistical outliers.
So yes, it’s very disturbing that such heinous accusations can be made without any accountably on the part of the accusers and no recourse for the wrongly accused.
In TSJ’s case, it would be a complete 180 degree life altering event that would devestate the trajectory of his professional and personal life.
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I would. I would probably lose but I would still do it and drag those who failed me down right along with me.
He is still on scholarship and has certain benefits still available to him as such. But he can’t be part of any team activities
Next up, it goes to The Student-Athlete Conduct Panel, not the DIA.
"The Panel will not act as an investigative body but will exercise good faith and reasonable judgment to draw needed conclusions based on the information available to it at the time it convenes. The Panel will undertake an individualized analysis to determine whether the available information justifies withholding the student-athlete from some or all athletic activities pending resolution ..."
https://fightingillini.com/sports/2022/7/21/student-conduct-policies-sa-handbook
It would be interesting to know if the “committee/review board” has ever ruled differently than what was put out by the AD. Especially since JW said that the suspension was only made after evidence or reports reached a certain threshold and that multiple people had been in agreement including the president, chancellor, legal etc.
I don’t see the board ever voting to reinstate TSJ unless all charges are dropped
JW reassured me on how TSJ was handle so far this season. Still need to hear all the facts before I jump to any side
To me I understand the suspension because TSJ has more important things than basketball to focus on. However is he able to use the facilities? How is he handling everything?
Also taking my Illini bias out of the equation I think a question that needs to be answered is when should a player be suspended? Should it be when they are accused of something, charged, indicted, or convicted? Does it depend on the accusation?
Looking at how Nunn was handled before the legal system handle the situation seemed heavy handed for what he actually got convicted from but might have been the right decision I am not sure of all the actual facts of the case
Also does the conference have any standing on this or is this a university matter?
To me I understand the suspension because TSJ has more important things than basketball to focus on. However is he able to use the facilities? How is he handling everything?
Also taking my Illini bias out of the equation I think a question that needs to be answered is when should a player be suspended? Should it be when they are accused of something, charged, indicted, or convicted? Does it depend on the accusation?
Looking at how Nunn was handled before the legal system handle the situation seemed heavy handed for what he actually got convicted from but might have been the right decision I am not sure of all the actual facts of the case
Also does the conference have any standing on this or is this a university matter?
A belief system of morals and values yes. I am not saying TSJ is guilty, but a filed charge of rape isn't something to bate an eye at.
It seems a lot of folks are looking for a way around this. Again, this society we live in that nothing is factual is absurd. Everyone immediately jumps to the complete opposite on how something can't be factual.
I hope justice is served either way.
Loyalillini10
- Urbana, IL
With some due respect, you are going off of the information your clients give you. The one-night stand example is pure conjecture on your part. You have no idea if that is what the girl though or not.
And to go a bit further, I question if you are an actual practicing psychologist/councilor. I have been married to a social worker for 13 years and I don't know anywhere close to any of these kinds of details about her clients because she is a professional. A professional does not talk about clients' details to anyone, let alone on a message board.
I believe I know the studies you are referring to, and I just want to point out that if I recall correctly those percentages relate specifically to proven false allegations as 2-8% is indeed what I remember as the suggested numbers for studies regarding false allegations. That said, the burden of proof that a false allegation was made is fairly high, as it typically has involved 1 of 3 major things: 1. Technological advancement (DNA testing methods) proving at a future date that the previously condemned party's dna was not the dna found at the crime scene. 2. Hard evidence the alleged assaulter was not at the scene of the crime. or 3. Physical or electronic evidence that the alleged victim is purposefully making fraudulent claims (this is the rarest occurrence of the three if I recall correctly). The only reason I state all this is that there is a percentage of cases where an allegation isn't proven false but may be mistaken. I know that sounds weird, but in cases of sexual assault, and especially when alcohol or drugs are involved, the brain tends to shut down to protect us, and memories unfortunately can get "fuzzy" for lack of better verbiage. There is a statistical belief that the technical percentage of let's not call it just "false" allegations, but "false + incorrect" allegations is significantly higher than that 2-8% value. Again, if I recall correctly that number was generally thought to be somewhere in the 12-21% of all cases. You are absolutely correct that 75% false allegations is nowhere near accurate, but I still just wanted to respond because there just tends to be so much confusion in general on the difference between "proven innocent", "found not-guilty", and "found guilty" and "truth" and "lying" when it comes to sexual assault and wanted to give a little more depth and information about the studies you are presenting.
It's why it's so important to take allegations of sexual assault seriously and believing the alleged victim who has come forward, and also allow for thorough investigation into the claim and allow for due process. And I think you absolutely know that based on your posts, I'm just stating it generally for anyone who might not think that way.
For everyone contributing professionally and personally informed perspectives, thank you.
This is a really crappy conversation that we're all having to have, but I appreciate those who are chiming in with honesty and clarity.
This is a really crappy conversation that we're all having to have, but I appreciate those who are chiming in with honesty and clarity.
Thanks for posting this.
The quandary I see for TJ is that the university policy categories ANY sexual misconduct, even misdemeanor level misconduct, as a “Major Offense.” So, even if he pleads to a misdemeanor charge, if it’s sexual misconduct related, it will still constitute a “Major Offense.”
Here’s where it gets more interesting … once a Major Offense is established, it then falls on the Athletic Director “exercising good faith” to impose final sanctions on the athlete that, “in the Director’s reasonable judgment, are in the best interests of the University.” Sanctions can range from probation to dismissal.
So, ultimately this could be Josh’s call to make. Note that tonight Josh repeatedly said that the University has zero tolerance for sexual misconduct.
Hmmmm.
Obviously they wouldn't be but Shannon is the current face of the basketball program they're obviously going to take steps to protect the university and the brand.
If a random student does it's not national news and it doesn't impact your reputation.
Typically I would not call someone out on a message board for posting some opinion (to which we are all entitled) but I think it is misleading and in fact quite irresponsible for a person who purports to be a professional psychologist to state “I’m a child/adolescent psychologist and I understand this is completely anecdotal but I’ve seen more false accusations by about a factor of 3:1,” and then follow that up with absolutely no further context whatsoever.
When a twelve year old girl tells a teacher that a family member is molesting her, is it your experience that there is a 75% chance she is making a false accusation? When a college student reports to her doctor that her date handed her one drink that made her blackout and she later discovered that her date had sex with her when she was unconscious, is it your experience that there is a 75% chance she is making a false accusation?
The actual context for your opinion, which I only learned from your reply comment a page later, is that you specialize in the psychological assessment of young men in school settings who have been accused of sexual misconduct and that you then provide testimony on their behalf that, in your opinion, the accusations are false. And then you provided three anecdotal instances where you believe that is what happened. Which is fine, but you ought to explain that you arrived at the viewpoint you are expressing because you have approached this issue from a very specific, and not exactly neutral, perspective.
You’ve got 25 people on here (as of the time I’m writing this) liking your post that amounts to “Hey I’m a psychologist who works with children and adolescents and I know from experience that 3/4th of them who claim to be victims of sex crimes are liars who are falsely accusing innocent people.” That may not have been your intent, but without any context, that is how your post reads. That claim is not only absolutely factual wrong, but it would be morally repugnant to be intentionally planting that notion in people’s heads and professionally negligent to be doing so inadvertently.
Yeah you can remove the “maybe” from your post. You are definitely coming in with 100% anecdotes and by most studies, would definitely be extreme statistical outliers.
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