TSJ Thread

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#351      

sacraig

The desert
I know zero about law. Does being listed as witness mean you automatically back the accuser? Or could the nurse be just giving her account of what she was involved in?
It's a court. Everyone testifies under oath and threat of perjury. They should be giving their truthful account of what they observed. However, a witness wouldn't be called by one side if that side didn't their the testimony would support their case.
 
#353      

uofi7477

Silver & Gold Vandals
I'm not sure I'd want his kind of help..
I'm not sure I'd want his kind of help...
Just perhaps Coach Self has had players in similar situations that MAY be dubious IF TSJ is more innocent than assumed by many? Also, he would be familiar with the local Prosecution Cast of Characters & Courts, no? Couldn't this be important to TSJ on various levels, no matter any other facts concerning this case? Loren Tate did not elaborate that I heard and I do not understand your response.
 
#354      

Krombopulos_Michael

Aurora, Illinois (that’s a suburb of Chicago)
Motion to rename this thread "Why I'm Not On Facebook".
Season 3 Episode 304 GIF by Rick and Morty
 
#355      
Two things from me:
1. I saw someone post about tsj being able to delay the meeting of those 3 ppl. I think it’s easy for a decision to look bad to outsiders either way (especially ppl with a reason to want Illinois less than full strength), but he should maybe have them delay until after Purdue? Then ppl can’t say Illinois brought him back for the big game and that might look better if they were to decide to let him play. Though to my point someone out there will say “because you lost to Purdue you’re bringing him back to save the season” if they lose

I am kind of confused about that decision though. Can those three ppl come to a decision a player should not be suspended any longer if they feel there isn’t enough evidence to warrant that life changing suspension? I know cases can come about without truly strong evidence for multiple reasons so imo just a case against him seems like a reasonable point to trigger a automatic suspension for review, but if there is nothing else available that suggests he committed a crime outside out of a person accusing him of doing something while they were spending time together in public, wouldn’t it be reasonable to let him come back until they feel there is a reason to remove him again? Innocent until proven guilty and with basically no evidence or proof this happened, with tsj saying he is fully innocent, idk it seems like there should be more burden of proof to basically start the process of ruining someone’s life (or a university’s very important season… I know this isn’t as important but it’s still a thing that involves a lot of other ppl and in a way it’s impacting the other players lives now too, without a conviction).

2. Since this happened in a bar and there was probably video recording inside, I wonder if that person is on video continuing to be around him after the act happened, possibly showing body language that she is comfortable around him or whatever. It could perhaps be used to point out the individual chose to continue spending time with him after, by choice. I know she is claiming he used force or fear to do it so I guess that can’t be 100% with a good argument from the accuser but still something to consider.
 
#357      
from the news gazette: "the Illinois athletic director said he did not see the charging report until Thursday after a DIA staffer retrieved it from social media." seems bizarre that this report would be available on social media before the Lawrence PD sends it to UIPD/JW. they were clearly asking for any kind of report or written information from them.
Seems odd that one would think that the University is being charged. I would only imagine that TSjr. or his attorney would legally be obligated to see the charging report. Literally there may be millions who would like to see the charging report, evidence, police report, etc., but none of those have that right.
 
#358      
So here is my question I hope someone can answer. First, when does the committee meet to consider the suspension question? Also, if the evidence that was available prior to this week was not sufficient to trigger a suspension, what new information does the University have now that it did not have prior to Thursday? If the only new development is that TJ was arrested and charged but no new evidence was provided, shouldn't the three member board rescind the suspension? I understand that the suspension was automatic in light of the warrant and arrest but if the facts in evidence were not sufficient to warrant a suspension prior to that why should things be different now? I hope someone can weigh in on that.
 
#359      
As an occasional viewer of crime procedurals, my experiences tells me...

the amanda show nicksplat GIF
No. I don’t believe so. Heresay is if someone testifies that someone else told them what happened. In this case the witness would be attesting to what the victim told them at the time or after the incident. Whether the victim called it rape or something else to another person would be admissible.
 
#360      
haha funny...

Let's give Bill some credit. He has been very gracious towards the program and if what Tate was reporting is true we own him huge kudos. He has nothing to gain and everything to loose.
I know he left us for Kansas, but Self is actually a great guy and this doesn’t surprise me to hear. I’ve encountered him once in person and got super positive vibes, but I’ve also heard plenty of stories from others who’ve met him and can confirm the same. He really is the man and seems to genuinely care. And if not then he’s the greatest actor ever.
 
#361      
No. I don’t believe so. Heresay is if someone testifies that someone else told them what happened. In this case the witness would be attesting to what the victim told them at the time or after the incident. Whether the victim called it rape or something else to another person would be admissible.
No it would be hearsay*. Hearsay is an out of court statement being offered for the truth of the matter asserted. So a witness coming in and testifying “person X told me Y” is hearsay, if you are submitting the statement Y as being true.

*However, you can theoretically enter the statement for another purpose other than the truth of the statement. Furthermore, there are multiple other exceptions for which hearsay is admissible, and/or to say that something isn’t actually hearsay (even though it generally falls under the original definition)

Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ll be in the corner recovering from the PTSD of thinking back to Evidence class.
 
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#362      
So here is my question I hope someone can answer. First, when does the committee meet to consider the suspension question? Also, if the evidence that was available prior to this week was not sufficient to trigger a suspension, what new information does the University have now that it did not have prior to Thursday? If the only new development is that TJ was arrested and charged but no new evidence was provided, shouldn't the three member board rescind the suspension? I understand that the suspension was automatic in light of the warrant and arrest but if the facts in evidence were not sufficient to warrant a suspension prior to that why should things be different now? I hope someone can weigh in on that.
The new information the university has is that TJ was charged with the crime. That fact is very likely to be relevant to the committee. It certainly is not conclusive of anything, but it does indicate that the prosecutor(s), who have much greater knowledge of the investigation than the committee (or anyone on this board), think the investigation has turned up enough evidence to bring charges.

I think people are mixing up the "evidence" in the legal case and in the DIA case. Yesterday, Josh repeatedly said that the athletic department did not have enough hard information to initiate this suspension/review process (no notice of intent to file charges, no police report, no anything in writing). That changed Wednesday. The issuing of the arrest warrant WAS new evidence from the athletic department and university's perspective. That's why the suspension occurred and the review process has been triggered. The evidence that Josh was talking about that was needed to trigger this suspension is not necessarily the same as the evidence that will be put forward at the trial itself. Additionally, the burdens of proof in the two scenarios (trial vs committee) are likely different. The amount of evidence the committee will require to keep the suspension in place is going to be lower than the amount of evidence the court will require to convict him.
 
#363      
I know he left us for Kansas, but Self is actually a great guy and this doesn’t surprise me to hear. I’ve encountered him once in person and got super positive vibes, but I’ve also heard plenty of stories from others who’ve met him and can confirm the same. He really is the man and seems to genuinely care. And if not then he’s the greatest actor ever.
He has taken care of many people over the years by doing bag drops. A very generous man, no doubt!
 
#366      
I have read the entire message board after the initial suspension and up to this post, read what has been said. I believe it sad at how there is a "belief" that the legal system is corrupt or a victim coming forward is immediately doubted. I keep reading how great of a human TSJ is (which is reasonable). Meanwhile people Google a DA and immediately start hammering home how off kilter she is. I can appreciate the loyalty to Illini sports but I think people need to take a step back and really think this through. After watching/listening to JW speak I believe one of one of two things, either TSJ withheld details and they took him for his word OR details were divulged and JW&CO decided that money and success were more important than setting a standard meanwhile hoping this would blow over.

TSJ shouldn't be allowed to play again for the U of I unless he is completely acquitted of all of charges. Plain and simple. As a man, father, and brother there is ZERO tolerance for this. From a misdemeanor to a felony. . . .zero tolerance.
I hear you. And as the father of daughters, I am sensitive to sexual violence. But, punishing TJ before the case is heard is unfair too. You are basically saying that he is guilty until proven innocent! Not sure what actually happened, but I don’t think it is fair levy a punishment before all the facts are known. We all should have the presumption of innocence UNTIL resolution of whatever charges occurs. If guilty, then the punishment should be commensurate with the crime.
 
#367      
The new information the university has is that TJ was charged with the crime. That fact is very likely to be relevant to the committee. It certainly is not conclusive of anything, but it does indicate that the prosecutor(s), who have much greater knowledge of the investigation than the committee (or anyone on this board), think the investigation has turned up enough evidence to bring charges.

I think people are mixing up the "evidence" in the legal case and in the DIA case. Yesterday, Josh repeatedly said that the athletic department did not have enough hard information to initiate this suspension/review process (no notice of intent to file charges, no police report, no anything in writing). That changed Wednesday. The issuing of the arrest warrant WAS new evidence from the athletic department and university's perspective. That's why the suspension occurred and the review process has been triggered. The evidence that Josh was talking about that was needed to trigger this suspension is not necessarily the same as the evidence that will be put forward at the trial itself. Additionally, the burdens of proof in the two scenarios (trial vs committee) are likely different. The amount of evidence the committee will require to keep the suspension in place is going to be lower than the amount of evidence the court will require to convict him.
That makes sense. I think you are correct concerning the standard of the committee. It is definitely much lower than "beyond a reasonable doubt". TJ clearly used extremely poor judgment at a minimum and the consequences are extremely severe. The message is clear that if you are a high profile athlete you need to avoid skating too close to the edge. In fact, that's good advice for all of us.
 
#369      
I have read the entire message board after the initial suspension and up to this post, read what has been said. I believe it sad at how there is a "belief" that the legal system is corrupt or a victim coming forward is immediately doubted. I keep reading how great of a human TSJ is (which is reasonable). Meanwhile people Google a DA and immediately start hammering home how off kilter she is. I can appreciate the loyalty to Illini sports but I think people need to take a step back and really think this through. After watching/listening to JW speak I believe one of one of two things, either TSJ withheld details and they took him for his word OR details were divulged and JW&CO decided that money and success were more important than setting a standard meanwhile hoping this would blow over.

TSJ shouldn't be allowed to play again for the U of I unless he is completely acquitted of all of charges. Plain and simple. As a man, father, and brother there is ZERO tolerance for this. From a misdemeanor to a felony. . . .zero tolerance.
TJ didn’t withhold anything from Josh or Brad. Josh and Brad are also girl dads they wouldn’t choose money and winning over covering up a sexual assault. You realize Josh knows way more than he let on yesterday right?
 
#371      
Now we’re on to hearsay? Sorry but we’re way out ahead of ourselves and vastly overthinking this.

We know close to nothing about the actual allegations, but from the limited things we have heard from credible sources, an educated guess can be made. A woman reported that she and TSJ had an interaction, at some point that physical aspects of that interaction exceeded the bounds of her consent (according to her), and there was at a minimum some kind of forcible touching where there was penetration (again, according to her). If an accuser is willing to swear to those allegations and there’s no determinative contrary evidence that would demonstrate the allegation is false, that is sufficient to sustain a criminal charge in pretty much any jurisdiction.

Maybe that sounds unfair and “me-too” run amuck to many of you reading this, but most criminal charges involving person-to-person crime are not initially supported by additional evidence beyond the sworn statement of the accuser. The test of whether the claims are true occurs during the discovery, pre trial, and trial stages. People get charged with crimes and the charges are later dropped or significantly reduced all the time. It’s not because of police or prosecutor misconduct as a general rule. It’s because there are ambiguities in life and the full truth of anything is often not clear.

In a case like this, if it ever went to trial, the witnesses (other than the accuser) and the “evidence” so to speak is not going to have direct bearing on whether the crime did or did not happen. It’s mostly just going to be corroborative. E.g., the victim claims to have been sitting alone with the defendant at X location at X time and yes, the “witnesses” and “evidence” supports that. In other words, do the ancillary aspects of the story check out more for one side or the other. Which goes to credibility. But it won’t prove or disprove the case. The detectives are doing their due dilligence looking into all that. But it’s ultimately going to come down to whether the accuser is believable and could convince a jury of that.

I will fault the Kansas DA in one respect however. It is really unfair to drop a charge like this on a high profile college athlete knowing how inflammatory it is and how widespread the news will be publicized without following up that charge with a public statement that at least clarifies the basic nature of what has been investigated and is being alleged. There is no gag order on DA’s offices that prevents them from issuing a statement. And in fact DA’s offices issue press releases about arrests that were just made and people who were charged every day. When you click on an article that says “Local Man Arrested For Driving Intoxicated After Crashing Into Parked Cars On Oak Street,” or “Woman Charged With Embezzling $100k From Charity Fund” or whatever, where did the reporter get that information? From a DA or police department press release. Abs it’s not different for sex crime cases. Obviously, the accuser’s identity will be withheld, but the basic nature of what is being alleged is not protected information. It does a great disservice to everyone involved with the case and the public at large to charge someone with such an insidious crime and then provide no explanation whatsoever as to what’s going on. They’re literally inviting just the worst imaginable speculation to run rampant all over and cause the most long term damage possible. It’s extremely bad practice and has to undermine anyone’s confidence that the people at that office are professionals who understand what they’re doing.
 
#372      
IF things are the way it seems to be at this point (and I understand there is a lot of unknown) then I really feel for TSJ. I’m all for justice, but this just seems to be dirty. If there was injustice somewhere then by all means, prosecute in a fair and fitting way. But to blast this out to the world as “xxxxx player charged with rape” is totally unfair if it is what it sounds like it may be. If so, shame on people and the system that allows someone’s name to be tainted like this before “proven guilty”. For the sake of everyone, I’m hoping the version we are hearing is all it is, and if so, this is completely unfair to TSJ.
 
#374      
TJ didn’t withhold anything from Josh or Brad. Josh and Brad are also girl dads they wouldn’t choose money and winning over covering up a sexual assault. You realize Josh knows way more than he let on yesterday right?
Think some people are underestimating the immense and calculated amount of due diligence a lawyer(JW) and his team, likely made up of even more lawyers, put into allowing Shannon to play to make sure it wouldn’t come back and bite the program he loves in the back and cause long term catastrophe. It’s been pointed out that Illinois didn’t ~just~ take Shannon’s word, but went above and beyond in making sure this was the right move. In JW we trust. He’s shown us no reason to doubt him.
 
#375      
I believe yesterday Josh said this committee had convened approximately a dozen times since the process was set up when he got here. Can anyone think of a single instance in that time when an athlete has been charged with a felony and been allowed to play? The Tate and Nunn suspensions were probably too soon after he was hired for this new system to be in place (also both were suspended until their legal situations were resolved). I'm guessing if that had happened, we would have heard about it. I can't think of any, but maybe some on here recall an instance I'm forgetting.
 
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